The Ancient Astronaut aspects of BSG

[Breea]

Hi,

My great-uncle worked with NASA up til his death..he actually died there...anyway, He helped to design alot of the rockets as well as the some of the actual space crafts...

I can remember when he came to visit us and brought alot of pictures that had been taken for us to see...They were so cool..esp. the ones of Mars..it showed what looked like canals..these were all evenly spaced and had a set design to them.

He also tole me that we would never really know what had been found on Mars because NASA would never admit it not would the government let them...He said that if we were ever to find out that it would "shake" our very believe and foundation of what we thought was in reality the truth...

I really wish he would have told me more but he never would...all he would say is to believe in the stars because that's where the truth really lied...When he passed..i got all of his papers..8mm films and pictures...funny, but I never really went through them..after re-reading this thread i guess I should go back and look at them.

Breea

Bree I would be highly interested in what your great-uncle left you. If you have the chance, would you be willing to post scans of any pics and/or documents that you may find of interest?

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by WarMachine

BEE,

Sorry, but I have to call you on #1 & #3.

Let me say, flat out, that I have no idea how the Great Pyramid was built -- but I can certainly tell you how it wasn't built; nobody drags c.60-ton granite slabs up an uncompacted incline, making 90° turns, to slide it into place at a reverse 45° angle...

While that's certainly not the only argument(they're really too numerous to list here), I'll give you one more:

It is estimated that there are approximately 2.5 million individual blocks of stone within the Great Pyramid; it is also estimated that it took about 30 years to build; being as I'm a very nice guy, I'll give the Egyptians an extra 10 years.

2.5 million blocks divided by 40 years equals 62,500 blocks placed, per year...or, 171.23 blocks per day or 7.13 blocks per hour, assuming a 24 hour work period. Note that this allows for no off-days for religious festivals, accidents, bad weather, etc....

Which is why your garden-variety Egyptologists react with such venom when people ask simple questions that their theories ignore.

As regards #3, if you have a truly catastrophic event occur on Earth, there may be no other refuge except space...any survivors would necessarily "come from space"....

Now let's take your pyramid shall we?
https://www.catchpenny.org/howbuilt.html
https://www.catchpenny.org/movebig.html
https://www.catchpenny.org/accretion.html
https://www.catchpenny.org/control.html

https://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_2.htm

You have 2,500,000 blocks in a 6,500,000 ton(metric) pyramid.
That is an average 2,6 ton block.
You stack that in 20 years 2,500,000 times.
For purposes of this discussion I'm using as the bench labor mark the modern labor manyear of 2000 hours.
So you have avalaible to you 40,000 hours per man over the twenty years that the Pharough's ministry budgeted for the pyramid.
Evidence of 40,000 men fed capacity bakeries have been dug up near the site of the Pyramids.
An average healthy man is easily capable of 1/5 horsepower sustained for hours. You would be surprised at how powerful humans really are. Gorillas may have six to eight times human surge strength; but they cannot sustain it for any period beyond a few minutes. Humans are unfortunate in that they share with that peculiar set of animals, like the horse, and the camels, adaptation for dry savannah conditions. They can operate under load for hours. For example, it was well understood among armies before the advent of motorized transportastion that for any movement of more than two days march, men would outmarch horses, because men could travel farther at a forced pace under load with far less rest. This was recently learned again in Afghanistan where the U.S. Army SOF teams on foot outmarched the valley bound horse mounted Taliban in that mountainous country and succeeded in cutting many mujahadin off repeatedly by called in ambush airstrikes. The only animals that kept up with the troops(American and Northern Alliance were mules.)

What has this to do with the Egyptians and piling blocks?
This.
With two hundred men I can move a ten ton block and sled.. It won't be easy, but I can drag it unlubricated using a skid sled uphill at a 15 degree incline at the rate of two miles an hour. Each men will have to drag 75 kilograms(You include five tons for the skid sled.. Not carry 75 kilograms, just drag it. Now those men do it the way we have done it for ten thousand years. 1,2,3, drag...1,2,3, drag. You shift out your drag team every hour on the hour. and you have three drag teams per block. Now that is far heavier than your average 2.6 ton block; where the drag teams actually consist of fifty men who would be dragging 72 kilograms(the skid sled weighs 1000 kg) each and would be also rotated out. one in three.

Now you have to set 625 blocks per eight hour day. Is that possible? That is 25 blocks an hour.
The assumption that the scoffers always had was that this was always impossible. Yet when you consider the MANPOWER? A set team would have something called a setjig to shove the blocks into preset alignment as the blocks came up. Those bl;ocks would be in train one right behind the other as per an assembly line-a whole caravan of them stretching all the way down that humongous ramp. The sled runs up to the unload point and my set team slams in their deload shims on the inboard runner. Then my waterbuffalo(or men, it makes nodifference) operate the swing ram that pounds that block into its set. Elapsed time? 30 seconds. Next!
You can swing the block if you need to using the The A frame set ram. A one ton log will move that block any direction you want it smartly and you already know how that works. When used in war its called a battering ram. Here its nothing more that a giant stone mason's set. For turning the stone on the corner? You pull ninety the skid sled at forty five degrees to the the arc of the intended turn. Simple.

Now I said that I can do this. True, any halfway competent builder or person who's run construction can organize this. No mystery. Its just piling blocks. Now moving a 7000 ton lighthouse in one piece? That is hard.

I honestly think your'e underestimating the magnitude and precision of the thing. It's really far from being just a pile of rocks.

The first thing that should give one pause, is when you also consider the other pyramids in Egypt. If you accept the orthodox model that human progress always moves slowly forward, then the Great Pyramid stands in defiance of this. The pyramids built in the 5th and 6th Dynasties are so poorly built that they have collapsed. While the Great Pyramid supposedly built in the 4th Dynasty, stood for millenia. Why would they forget their tried and true construction techniques when every aspect of their lives was written down and recorded carefully? Could it suggest that the later pyramids were actually attempts to mimick the Great Pyramid? Futhermore, what other construction can you name that has lasted for Millenia relatively intact? It's like making a Porshe, forgetting how to do that, then going back to making Model T's.

Second, if you take the orthodox view that these were meant as tombs, where are the bodies? Not one shred of evidence, either bodies or or any signs of burial were ever found in the pyramids. In fact, The Pyramid of Sekhemket there was found a sarcphagus that was intact, not disturbed by grave robbers that when opened was found to be empty.

Third, unlike just about every other Egyptian structure, there are no inscriptions on this thing whatsoever, aside from Colonol Howard Vyse's graffitti.

Fouth, this thing is aligned with the cardinal points with a deviation from true of less than 0.015 percent. There's a difference of less than 8 inches between its shortes and longest sides. An error of a fraction of 1 percent on an average side of 9063 inches. Each corner is within less than 1 degree of a perfect 90 degree angle. It stands in the exact center of the Earth's landmass. Why such precision in a primitive pile of rocks?

Fifth, you mention the average 2.6 ton weitght of the stones. Keep in mind this is an average. Courses 1-18 diminish in their highs from about 55 inches to about 23 inches ranging 2-5 tons. Then at Course 19 they suddenly increase again to stones rangin 10 -15 tons. Which defies logic when you consider that most builders would call for decreasing size and weight of stones the higher you go. The king's Chamber containes stones weighing up to 70 tons. Why make the construction more difficult the higher you go than it has to be, especially considering your manuevering the stones with ropes and levers?

Sixth, this thing consists of about 2.3 million blocks of stone. According to the othodox view it took an estimate of something like 100,000 men 20 years to build it. If the workers had a 10 hour day, and worked 365 days per year, they would need to place 31 stones in position every half hour. And this is everything was done without a hitch. This doesn't even take into account the inevitable accidents of falling stones and crushed workers which would set back construction considerably. Ropes and levers?

Seventh, around the base of the Pyramid, one of the fallen polished casing stones was studied and found to have a tolerance of less than one hundredth of an inch.

We won't even get into the 200 ton blocks of the Valley Temple.

And then of course you have the redating of ths Sphinx which is simply irrifutable.

I don't know, seems like a pretty imrpessive pile of rocks to me.

The problem with Egyptologists, is that Egyptologists are Egyptologists. Egyptologists are not engineers. Egyptologists are not geologists. Egyptologists are not architects. So Egyptologists are not really qualified to comment on the construction or age of these structures.

Reality is going to be whatever it wants to be. Reality doesn't care about careers, sending kids to college, paying mortgages, or people's standing in the community.


But, the completion date could be congruant with the time of Kafre. That's definitely possible. But I don't really see how stone knives and bear skins could have accomplished such a thing int he time alloted.

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by jjrakman

I honestly think your'e underestimating the magnitude and precision of the thing. It's really far from being just a pile of rocks.

The first thing that should give one pause, is when you also consider the other pyramids in Egypt. If you accept the orthodox model that human progress always moves slowly forward, then the Great Pyramid stands in defiance of this. The pyramids built in the 5th and 6th Dynasties are so poorly built that they have collapsed. While the Great Pyramid supposedly built in the 4th Dynasty, stood for millenia. Why would they forget their tried and true construction techniques when every aspect of their lives was written down and recorded carefully? Could it suggest that the later pyramids were actually attempts to mimick the Great Pyramid? Futhermore, what other construction can you name that has lasted for Millenia relatively intact? It's like making a Porshe, forgetting how to do that, then going back to making Model T's.

Second, if you take the orthodox view that these were meant as tombs, where are the bodies? Not one shred of evidence, either bodies or or any signs of burial were ever found in the pyramids. In fact, The Pyramid of Sekhemket there was found a sarcphagus that was intact, not disturbed by grave robbers that when opened was found to be empty.

Third, unlike just about every other Egyptian structure, there are no inscriptions on this thing whatsoever, aside from Colonol Howard Vyse's graffitti.

Fouth, this thing is aligned with the cardinal points with a deviation from true of less than 0.015 percent. There's a difference of less than 8 inches between its shortes and longest sides. An error of a fraction of 1 percent on an average side of 9063 inches. Each corner is within less than 1 degree of a perfect 90 degree angle. It stands in the exact center of the Earth's landmass. Why such precision in a primitive pile of rocks?

Fifth, you mention the average 2.6 ton weitght of the stones. Keep in mind this is an average. Courses 1-18 diminish in their highs from about 55 inches to about 23 inches ranging 2-5 tons. Then at Course 19 they suddenly increase again to stones rangin 10 -15 tons. Which defies logic when you consider that most builders would call for decreasing size and weight of stones the higher you go. The king's Chamber containes stones weighing up to 70 tons. Why make the construction more difficult the higher you go than it has to be, especially considering your manuevering the stones with ropes and levers?

Sixth, this thing consists of about 2.3 million blocks of stone. According to the othodox view it took an estimate of something like 100,000 men 20 years to build it. If the workers had a 10 hour day, and worked 365 days per year, they would need to place 31 stones in position every half hour. And this is everything was done without a hitch. This doesn't even take into account the inevitable accidents of falling stones and crushed workers which would set back construction considerably. Ropes and levers?

Seventh, around the base of the Pyramid, one of the fallen polished casing stones was studied and found to have a tolerance of less than one hundredth of an inch.

We won't even get into the 200 ton blocks of the Valley Temple.

And then of course you have the redating of ths Sphinx which is simply irrifutable.

I don't know, seems like a pretty imrpessive pile of rocks to me.

The problem with Egyptologists, is that Egyptologists are Egyptologists. Egyptologists are not engineers. Egyptologists are not geologists. Egyptologists are not architects. So Egyptologists are not really qualified to comment on the construction or age of these structures.

Reality is going to be whatever it wants to be. Reality doesn't care about careers, sending kids to college, paying mortgages, or people's standing in the community.


But, the completion date could be congruant with the time of Kafre. That's definitely possible. But I don't really see how stone knives and bear skins could have accomplished such a thing int he time alloted.

1. Why would the Egyptians abandon pyramid building? We, ourselves, no longer have the technological base to build IOWA class battleships. Why? We still have the knowledge base written down though we have lost the skillsets. The need wasn't there. Why build IOWAs when we can build ARLEIGH BURKEs and OHIOs? When I say we can build pyramids today, I ASSURE you I KNOW what I am talking about. The actual construction techniques are SIMPLE. It is the logistics that take a bit of doing. The reason the Egyptians gave up on the process is that their religion changed, their technology changed(improved) and they became POOR. Only rich societies try big flashy one shot pyramids and Apollo moon programs. Poor ones go back to the drawing board, improve their technology, and build High Frontier space programs and Giza incrementally.

2. As for Millenial construction that has lasted as long? Given that the Egyptians were the first off the chocks with their pyramids? Lets visit Cuzco in three thousand years? Or better yet, the Panama canal in about five thousand.

What an Egyptian pyramid actually is, is a very small manmade mountain subject to the effects of erosion. Those piles could take hundreds of thousands of years to erode, or 5x10^15 joules to dissappear in one second. Its a matter of applied energy.

3. Whether the pyramid is a tomb or not?

https://www.egyptsites.co.uk/lower/sa...mids/teti.html If you read the text you will see that the grave robbers left an arm of that poor sod behind.

4. If I want inscriptions on the thing, I'll hire chisellers(lawyers). But seriously, the lack of inscription is not just restricted to this pile. A lot of pyramids lack the burial chamber and the ante temple complex with the inscriptions. Khufu's pile is not unique in this. Besides that has nothing to do with the point I raised which is that humans built this thing.

5. So you wonder why the Egyptians used the north star and the geometry of square and angle to lay out their pile? Simple. Unless you have a surveyed benchmarked square on the surface of the Earth, you cannot prepare flat level ground for any structure

How do you establish this? How do you run azimuth and bearing to align and slope your pile of bricks wnen all you have is a graduated idiot stick, a runner with twine, another runner with a wood mallet and stakes, a copper right angle with a plumb bob and the human eye?

You use stars and an edge transit. Its all you have. What amazes me is not that the Egyptians used this method,. but that they were so clumsy in the doing. The Mayan temple builders used the same technique and laid theirs more accurately out.

End Part 1

[Damocles]

Pyramids; Part 2

6. The rock piling Egyptians weren't stupid. The stones were sized and placed according to the needs of compression loading in the course runs. If you noticed the pyramid attempts before Khufu's, many of those piles blew out because the compression loading wasn't correctly factored to keep the core filler from bursting out the facet sides, leaving rubble piles.

I already discussed a ten ton stone. Do you want me to describe the 1000 ton stones the Egyptions moved on their track and sledge system? Or that you maintain the same one man/seventy five kilogram ratio for each drag team?
Now that would seem to indicate 13,400 hundred men on the ropes? Did you look at the light house we moved in 1999?

https://www.catchpenny.org/movebig.html

You use levers and the rams to shock move that huge mass thereby reducing your drag team to a more managable 1000 men. Gravity and kinetic energy substitute for muscle. Its slow, but give me a lever and a sufficiently massive ram and I can move anything-ANYTHING.

7. Lets do your calculation again shall we?

One man year=2000 hours
20 man years =40000 hours.
2,500,000 stones divided by 40000 man hours=625 stones per hour or eleven stones per minute or 2 tenths of one stone per second.

That is assuming that you are setting one course per run or one facet or had one drag team, one set team and one ram and lever team working on your rock pile.

Nope. Run three courses per facet side(This is laying blocks remember?). Run the race around your rock pile corkscrew pattern. You set twelve blocks per minute.

Now recalculate.

12x60=720 blocks per hour which matches in great excess what you have to meet to pile your pyramid in twenty years using an eight hour day. And you can do that with forty thousand men, not 100,000 men.(including the quarry cutters.).

Sounds impossible(not) even factoring rain days and accidents.

8. Now how do you dress a stone to get a perfect edge?

https://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/ancie...necutting.html

The Egyptians used vinegared wedge, copper bitted bow drills, obsidian toothed wood saws, water, and granite block polishing trowels to cut, dress and shape their stone. We see this from the tool marks on the very polished block you sight as an example. Especially since there was a quality control priest who chiselled the Pharough's inspection mark on the stones he trued up with his copper right angle!(Pesky little bureaucrat!)

The problem with construction professionals is that they are construction professionals. They have to send their kids to college and they know nothing about mummification and Cunieform B. So in reality, they can't comment on how the Egyptians mummified their dead or what Osirus meant in the religious pantheon of Egyptian gods.

Furthermore, they cannot comment on the age of the Sphinx;

https://www.sis.gov.eg/ancient/front.htm

https://www.sis.gov.eg/sphinx/html/sphnx003.htm

All I can say about Doctor Schock's work is that he makes one very important fundamental mistake. He confuses the mechanism of erosion, Water does not erode. Wind does not erode. It is the grit carried by water and wind that erodes and wears away a surface. To distinguish between the two mediums that carry the grit you have to examine the channelling and frankly, in the case of soft sandstone? The erosion channelling from windborne and waterborne grit is damned hard to tell apart.

Well, you definitely outweighed me on this topic. No pun intended. Good stuff. I will however counter you on a few points. Anything I'm not directly addressing, I'm conceeding on.

2. As for Millenial construction that has lasted as long? Given that the Egyptians were the first off the chocks with their pyramids? Lets visit Cuzco in three thousand years? Or better yet, the Panama canal in about five thousand.

That's a good point, but I'm not referencing structures at some point in the future. I'm primarily talking about present day Earth.

3. Whether the pyramid is a tomb or not?

The quote you pointed out actually speculates that it may have been the arm of that poor sod. It doesn't identify it. It could easly have been the arm of one of the grave robbers themselves.

If I want inscriptions on the thing, I'll hire chisellers(lawyers). But seriously, the lack of inscription is not just restricted to this pile. A lot of pyramids lack the burial chamber and the ante temple complex with the inscriptions. Khufu's pile is not unique in this.

Which to me is what makes them so alien (for lack of a better word) to the other structures the Egyptians definitely did build.

Besides that has nothing to do with the point I raised which is that humans built this thing.

It does insomuch that it isn't congruent with other structures that we are certain beyond debate that the Egyptians did in fact build. But I don't argue this fact at all. In fact in science you look for the simplest answer. And the simplest answer is that hyumans built them. All I would argue is that our knowledge of the construction methods, and the age of the structures is incomplete. In fact, barring using a time machine to go back to the time the pyramids were built to videotape it taking place, I'm not certain how anyone can say with certainty what took place thousands of years ago. Just my opinion.

5. So you wonder why the Egyptians used the north star and the geometry of square and angle to lay out their pile?

No. I'm wondering how such modern precision can be accomplished on such a massive scale using primitive stone workers, rope, levers and copper tools.

The problem with construction professionals is that they are construction professionals. They have to send their kids to college and they know nothing about mummification and Cunieform B. So in reality, they can't comment on how the Egyptians mummified their dead or what Osirus meant in the religious pantheon of Egyptian gods.

I would absolutely agree. Which is why I also think construction professionals should be the ones to tell us about the engineering and construction of the Pyramids, not historians. The historians (Egyptologists) should stick to the mummifcation and Cuneiform B, and religious traditions. I wouldn't go to a podiatrist for a heart problem. Similarily, I wouldn't go to cardiac surgeon for a foot problem.

https://www.sis.gov.eg/sphinx/html/sphnx003.htm

This was really interesting. I would also be interested to see if Schoch has a rebuttal, I'd bet he does. I guess the thing that intrigues me about Schoch more than any of the others, is that he's really no New Ager. He completed a bachelor's degree in both anthropology and geology. He then earned two Masters degrees and a Ph.D. Now he's a tenured associate professor at Boston University's College of General Studies. Certainly he's no John Anthony West, and at the very least his theories should be considered.

Anyway, great discussion, I learned alot!

One thing I would like to see done, is the attempt to retrieve the wooden pole in the shaft of the Pyramid that Gatinbrink sent his robot down, or at the very least a piece of it. That pole could be dated and give a more definite date for construction.

Do you subscribe to either of the ramp theories, or the roller theory?

Also, what do you do for a living exactly? Not a sarchastic question. I'm genuinely interested.

[Damocles]

I am an industrial contractor; more specifically, a construction manager by training.

Specifically, I build infrastructure like roads, bridges, factories, etc.

Beyond that I will not go.

----------------------------------------
https://www.catchpenny.org/shaftend.html

I would clearly like to recover one of those copper pins! Much better, I would like to get through those shaft plugs.

https://members.aol.com/aditt48670/pyramid.html is an unusual idea I do not find to be valid.

Now as to the ramp or roller theory? Clearly I support a timber layered reinforced tracked ramp. Rollers? No. Sled and friction rail system. You need hard planking and "slick" friction to slide and move those blocks safely up an incline.(Remember the lighthouse? We aren't stupid either.).

I am an industrial contractor; more specifically, a construction manager by training.

Specifically, I build infrastructure like roads, bridges, factories, etc.

Cool stuff. See, in my humble opinion, a person like yourself (and also geologists), would be far more qualified to comment on the construction and age of the Pyramids, than an Egyptologist/historian. An Egyptologist/historian knows nothing about the engineering details and statistics that you cite. Honestly ask yourself, what would an Egyptologist know about engineering or construction that you couldn't teach them? Probably nothing. But that's just my opinion.

But you never answered these questions:

Do you subscribe to either of the ramp theories, or the roller theory?

[Damocles]

By ramp theory, do you mean the straight approach, or the spiral approach, or the multiple ramp and ledge, or......

https://www.touregypt.net/featurestor...ramidlifts.htm

I must say



Do you see the outlined compressed ground footprint surrounding the pyramid to the southwest of Khufu's rockpile?(The pyramid at the top of the photo is Khufu's.)

That ground was compacted by something HEAVY.

The pyramid in question was surrounded by a massive cofferdammed ramp that wrapped it.

I've already described that the ramp would be plated with a smooth planked paving and that on top of that would be skid tracks for a slick friction sled train of blocks.

Anybody saying that the Egyptians would leapfrog logs as rollers to convey a sled up a ramp has never handled logs or a drag weight under load. The only way to keep such a load moving in a straight line using rollers is a little invention called a wheel and axle. Otherwise you need guide rails as the load tends to acquire harmonic moment and skid out either left or right depending which side of the drag team is the weak side during the heave-usually the left side as you face load front.(This is true for machines too, so don't blame the men on the rope!)

Another problem is how do drop those logs in across the tow lines? Logs are not the answer. Skids are. If you do it right and you plank the road with hafl timbers herringboned fashion; you dry drag your load up a 15% grade with the manpower specified, with minimum distance intervals, minimum sized drag teams and little risk of accident.

[3DMaster]

Originally Posted by Bug-Eyed Earl

I just used that extreme to illustrate that though I don't believe in those theories, they still make good stories.

Really, it's several theories (to me):

1. Visitation in ancient times influenced our ancestors.
2. Aliens created man
3. Man came form space

1 is certainly possible. But we do know how the pyramids were built.

Uh, no, we know WHEN the pyramids were buit, but not HOW. There are theories on how they were built, however, there are some things about the pyramids that we couldn't reproduce today, or at least would have some extreme difficulty with doing it.

Anyway on thing the pyramids show is that the Egyptians were much more scientifically advanced, and had much more knowledge than the established Egyptians say they had. (The exact dimensions of the Earth wrapped up inside the great pyramid for example.)

The sphynx however is in a way much more interesting. Every geologist who wasn't told up front by archeologists 'when the sphynx was built' get a figure that it is at least 7,000 years old and as old as 12,500. Who built it, we don't know, but it wasn't the Egyptians, at least not the Egyptians as we know them.

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by 3DMaster

Uh, no, we know WHEN the pyramids were buit, but not HOW. (^1)There are theories on how they were built, however, there are some things about the pyramids that we couldn't reproduce today, or at least would have some extreme difficulty with doing it.(^2)

Anyway on thing the pyramids show is that the Egyptians were much more scientifically advanced, and had much more knowledge than the established Egyptians say they had.(^3) (The exact dimensions of the Earth wrapped up inside the great pyramid for example(^4).)

The sphynx however is in a way much more interesting. Every geologist who wasn't told up front by archeologists 'when the sphynx was built' get a figure that it is at least 7,000 years old and as old as 12,500. Who built it, we don't know, but it wasn't the Egyptians, at least not the Egyptians as we know them.

^1 We can only know when, generally, and we have a fairly good idea of how WE would do it, given their resources and time.

^2 Absolutely correct. If we had tol build a pyramid in the American Southwest there are things we would have to change about the way we did it. We would have to rail our blocks in hundreds of kilometers(using the wheel and the steam engine*) and build without a massive river to us help, for example.

^3 Absolutely. In fact with few exceptions I concur with the statements that archaeologists seriously underestimate the skill of ancient civilizations' abilities across the board. Those peoples worked to the peak limits of their available materials and energy resources to build some amazing things. Given enough time and enough men you can build anything to the load limits of wood, stone and the lift limits of muscle powered lever, wedge, and when you have it pulley and wheel. Astute use of mass inertia gravity and kinetic energy give you mechanical advantages that we assume we have due to our machines. The ancients though were able to generate those advantages with workarounds and dodges(applied physics). Stone, wood, muscle, and bone. If you concede the equivalence of mind, the pyramids are well within those limits.

^4 https://www.catchpenny.org/pyramid.html Mass center distribution is off by 1/2 pi r^2 You'd be closer if the thing were in Antartica.

^5 Much of the Sphinx controversy is based on erosion evidence. Potassium argon dating of any chisel site on the artifact's face is a better way to date the thing. Has anybody tried this?

----------------------------------------------
* It is amazing how close the Greeks came to the twin pillars of our modern strength-the combustion engine and massive iron working.

https://www.udayton.edu/~hume/Steam/steam.htm

https://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Greeks.htm

Now toss in the Baghdad battery and the routine knowledge of electroplating silver? What happened?

Makes you want to throttle those numbskulls who burned the library of Alexandria.

That set us back 2000 years.

[3DMaster]

Originally Posted by Damocles

^1 We can only know when, generally, and we have a fairly good idea of how WE would do it, given their resources and time.

^2 Absolutely correct. If we had tol build a pyramid in the American Southwest there are things we would have to change about the way we did it. We would have to rail our blocks in hundreds of kilometers(using the wheel and the steam engine*) and build without a massive river to us help, for example.

^3 Absolutely. In fact with few exceptions I concur with the statements that archaeologists seriously underestimate the skill of ancient civilizations' abilities across the board. Those peoples worked to the peak limits of their available materials and energy resources to build some amazing things. Given enough time and enough men you can build anything to the load limits of wood, stone and the lift limits of muscle powered lever, wedge, and when you have it pulley and wheel. Astute use of mass inertia gravity and kinetic energy give you mechanical advantages that we assume we have due to our machines. The ancients though were able to generate those advantages with workarounds and dodges(applied physics). Stone, wood, muscle, and bone. If you concede the equivalence of mind, the pyramids are well within those limits.

^4 https://www.catchpenny.org/pyramid.html Mass center distribution is off by 1/2 pi r^2 You'd be closer if the thing were in Antartica.

^5 Much of the Sphinx controversy is based on erosion evidence. Potassium argon dating of any chisel site on the artifact's face is a better way to date the thing. Has anybody tried this?

The face of the sphinx is useless. The head is much younger than the rest; it was recarved. If you look at the thing, it's much too small for the entire sphinx. Most likely it was once the only thing above sand, and wind eroded it much faster away until it was barely recognizable and the egyptians recarved the head - which many believe was originally a lion's head and not a human head at all.

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by 3DMaster

The face of the sphinx is useless. The head is much younger than the rest; it was recarved. If you look at the thing, it's much too small for the entire sphinx. Most likely it was once the only thing above sand, and wind eroded it much faster away until it was barely recognizable and the egyptians recarved the head - which many believe was originally a lion's head and not a human head at all.

The rump was carved after the head for that very reason originally. Where would you take the dating sample the forepaws?

[3DMaster]

Originally Posted by Damocles

The rump was carved after the head for that very reason originally. Where would you take the dating sample the forepaws?

No, the rumb was carved BEFORE the head. The head was recarved much later, after it was most eroded away by wind. The rump and the paws have a very different erosion pattern than the head: rounded rivolutes, erosion consistent with heavy rainfall over an extended period of time.

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by 3DMaster

No, the rumb was carved BEFORE the head. The head was recarved much later, after it was most eroded away by wind. The rump and the paws have a very different erosion pattern than the head: rounded rivolutes, erosion consistent with heavy rainfall over an extended period of time.

Okay:

https://www.catchpenny.org/sphinx.html

https://www.catchpenny.org/sphinx.html

You have two thousand years to do this with sand carried water, according to Schock;







Now you have a problem. this is wind borne grit eroded sandstone,



And this is the predominantly waterborne eroded variety;



The problem is as I said before, the erosion runnels in either water borne or windborne erosion is hard to declare flatly. The fact is that I expect more erosion and wear in a desert environment than I do from water action. Rain is a sometime thing but the wind and the sand it carries is an always event-especially in the desert.

Schock works is subject to justifiable and quite heavy criticism on his failure to account for that factor alone.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/pyramid...re/sphinx.html

Notice that the Sphinx is a single carved artefact made out of a sedimented and layered stone deposit? The base, belly and paws appeared to be of a fairly hard limestone resistant to dew wicking and cracking. The middle of the Sphinx up to the back and just below the neck and head appears to be porous sandstone quite vulnerable to dew wicking temperture induced cleavage and wind borne grit erosion. The head for the most part appears to be the hardest feature of the Sphinx being the least eroded and the most close grained rock. That is the rock that I want to date, since it will have been the most chisel resistant. It was also the first exposed to the elements.

I invite you take the NOVA video tour of the pit that the Sphinx sits in. The Egyptians may have carved twice on that head but it was the first part of the Sphinx exposed. The Rump was the last. It was dug out. Therefore the head remains the potassium argon target of choice. And the broken off nose is the choice site since you can get two target samples, unless you want to tell me that the Egyptians carved on that head on scaffolds some thirty meters in the air after they had the body uncovered?

If we spot date the Sphinx, head flanks and rump, I think you will be surprised to find the head to be the part carved first.

[Breea]

...OK...what about what looks like a carving on the inside of one of the pyramids
that looks like a helicopter?......Or others carvings that looking like space travelers?

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by Breea

...OK...what about what looks like a carving on the inside of one of the pyramids
that looks like a helicopter?......Or others carvings that looking like space travelers?

Source please?

Edit; oh you mean this?

https://dudeman.net/siriusly/aliens/ast.shtml

https://www.ufocom.org/pages/v_us/m_a...os/abydos.html

Basically it is overwriting of heiroglyphics by Ramses II claiming credit for things he didn't do.

Incidentally, you read in the article"In the Kingdom of the blind the one-eyed man is king." The author attributes that wrongly to the French. It is actually the Castillian Spaniards who said that. It was also they, who invented the Italian saying,"Revenge is a dish best served cold." They were a mean bunch.

Cheers,

[3DMaster]

Originally Posted by Damocles

Okay:

You have two thousand years to do this with sand carried water, according to Schock;

The problem is as I said before, the erosion runnels in either water borne or windborne erosion is hard to declare flatly. The fact is that I expect more erosion and wear in a desert environment than I do from water action. Rain is a sometime thing but the wind and the sand it carries is an always event-especially in the desert.

Schock works is subject to justifiable and quite heavy criticism on his failure to account for that factor alone.

Hence Shoch and others saying it has to be old enough that it was built at a time that Egypt was NOT a desert, that it was tropical with water coming down very, very, very often. Further the Sphynx for a major part of its historical existence was covered up. A nice little thing in the artical talks about how something was only uncovered last century, and thus there is the implication that Sphynx was uncovered much earlier. Oh, wait, the Sphynx wasn't uncovered until the 19th century either. Most notably, the erosion PATTERNS on the sphynx are from rain: rivolutes. Water takes easiest way, and thus erodes that out; it will come together from multiple sources to form a single heavier flow; creating small verticles rounded crevices. This does not work with flooding water that rises up and then down again; it only happens with water landing on the sphynx and then flowing down it - that pattern of erosion is on the sphynx.

Notice that the Sphinx is a single carved artefact made out of a sedimented and layered stone deposit? The base, belly and paws appeared to be of a fairly hard limestone resistant to dew wicking and cracking. The middle of the Sphinx up to the back and just below the neck and head appears to be porous sandstone quite vulnerable to dew wicking temperture induced cleavage and wind borne grit erosion. The head for the most part appears to be the hardest feature of the Sphinx being the least eroded and the most close grained rock. That is the rock that I want to date, since it will have been the most chisel resistant. It was also the first exposed to the elements.

The hardest, and yet so eroded it is much too small to fit the body; apparrently long enough ago the Egyptians recarved it back when the supposedly original builder built it.

I invite you take the NOVA video tour of the pit that the Sphinx sits in. The Egyptians may have carved twice on that head but it was the first part of the Sphinx exposed. The Rump was the last. It was dug out. Therefore the head remains the potassium argon target of choice. And the broken off nose is the choice site since you can get two target samples, unless you want to tell me that the Egyptians carved on that head on scaffolds some thirty meters in the air after they had the body uncovered?

If we spot date the Sphinx, head flanks and rump, I think you will be surprised to find the head to be the part carved first.

???

You won't get the date it was carved with argon dating, you get the date the rock was formed. Which would mean you get the youngest date if the sphynx rock didn't form in the same time, deeper is earlier. If you take a piece of the rock on the edge now, and take some plantlife from it, you'll get a date of a days to decades when wind deposited it on it, and it somehow managed to stay there. The layer of rock that was revealed to the world the moment the carving was finished is long gone, eroded away, whether it was recarved or not.

[3DMaster]

Originally Posted by Damocles

Source please?

Edit; oh you mean this?

https://dudeman.net/siriusly/aliens/ast.shtml

https://www.ufocom.org/pages/v_us/m_a...os/abydos.html

Basically it is overwriting of heiroglyphics by Ramses II claiming credit for things he didn't do.

Incidentally, you read in the article"In the Kingdom of the blind the one-eyed man is king." The author attributes that wrongly to the French. It is actually the Castillian Spaniards who said that. It was also they, who invented the Italian saying,"Revenge is a dish best served cold." They were a mean bunch.

Cheers,

Now why don't I believe that explantion so easily...

oh, yeah, they recarve something, plaster falls out, and they just happen to form, not 1, not even 2, not 3, no 4 things looking exactly like extremely modern vehicles, all in the same place, grouped nicely together and NO WHERE ELSE in the entirely of Egypt did recarving ever produce anything even close to resembling modern looking vehicles.

Is rather a big coincidence, isn't it?

Now, 1. Okay, I can grasp that, I'm even willing to give you 2, but 4? In the same place? Yet nowhere else?

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by 3DMaster

Now why don't I believe that explantion so easily...

oh, yeah, they recarve something, plaster falls out, and they just happen to form, not 1, not even 2, not 3, no 4 things looking exactly like extremely modern vehicles, all in the same place, grouped nicely together and NO WHERE ELSE in the entirely of Egypt did recarving ever produce anything even close to resembling modern looking vehicles.

Is rather a big coincidence, isn't it?

Now, 1. Okay, I can grasp that, I'm even willing to give you 2, but 4? In the same place? Yet nowhere else?

Let me see if I can source some evidence;

https://www.dudeman.net/siriusly/ufo/art.shtml

Now consider Ezekiel;

https://www.cforc.com/kjv/Ezekiel/

All of that is the best evidence that something funny is going on in the skies and people are recording it to the best of their ability.

The Chinese had these;

https://hometown.hces.tc.edu.tw/eng/cultural/toys.htm

many of them around the time of Marco Polo.

Those are facts not in dispute not well known.

But the Egyptians did not have helicopters or aircraft of our complexity, or performance. Period.

Where is the industrial footprint?

You leave behind mines, foundries, and assembly sheds when you build those artifacts.

An artisan can make a Baghdad battery and escape notice.

But if you build a chariot we dig you up three thousand years later and find your stables and barracks.

Best wishes;

[Breea]

Have you ever seen " Chariots of the Gods " ?..It's available now on dvd.

Breea

[Gemini1999]

Originally Posted by Breea

Have you ever seen " Chariots of the Gods " ?..It's available now on dvd.

Breea

Breea -

I remember seeing that back in the 70's. I read the book to and ate it all up...

I admit that it could all be crap, but I think that it's more of a stretch of the imagination to believe than not to.

Some think that Von Daniken just embellished on a bad idea just to sell books and make some money.

Bad ideas.....don't you just love those? Don't you wish that you had thought of it first?

There are those that beleive....and those that don't. It's much more fun from where I sit!

Best,
Bryan

There are those that beleive....and those that don't. It's much more fun from where I sit!

And then there's me. Until I see actual videotape of ANYTHING, I'll consider all options.

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by 3DMaster

Hence Shoch and others saying it has to be old enough that it was built at a time that Egypt was NOT a desert, that it was tropical with water coming down very, very, very often. Further the Sphynx for a major part of its historical existence was covered up. A nice little thing in the artical talks about how something was only uncovered last century, and thus there is the implication that Sphynx was uncovered much earlier. Oh, wait, the Sphynx wasn't uncovered until the 19th century either. Most notably, the erosion PATTERNS on the sphynx are from rain: rivolutes. Water takes easiest way, and thus erodes that out; it will come together from multiple sources to form a single heavier flow; creating small verticles rounded crevices. This does not work with flooding water that rises up and then down again; it only happens with water landing on the sphynx and then flowing down it - that pattern of erosion is on the sphynx.

The Helocene climate of North Africa was one of wide shallow lakes, grasslands and seasonal rainfall. To be honest we don't have good data from that region of the world because nobody has done the crap with the tree rings and the soil cores, seed spore counts, that we've done in Europe and North America.

https://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2001AM/fin...ract_27499.htm

GEOARCHAEOLOGY OF UMM AKHTAR PLAYA: EARLY HOLOCENE PALAEOENVIRONMENTS OF S. EGYPT
NICOLL, Kathleen, Chevron Petroleum Technology Company, 6001 Bollinger Canyon Rd, San Ramon, CA 94583, nika@chevron.com.
Integrated lithostratigraphic and geochronologic studies of Umm Akhtar Playa, a dry lake located at N 22 deg 36’ E 30 deg 18’ in southern Egypt, indicate the accumulation and rapid desiccation of a sizeable (>65 sq km) standing waterbody during the Late Quaternary. Twenty-two radiocarbon dates on hearths and incorporated organic materials bracket ‘wet’ phases from ~8915–8580 C-14 yr BP and ~7105–5955 C-14 yr BP. During these intervals, rapid incursions of sediment-laden flows discharged into the basin after seasonal or periodic floods, depositing lithic gravels (Qal) and massive muds (Qp) which are locally interstratified with ribbons of aeolian sand (Qd) along the paleoshore. The ponded water was formerly deep and persistent enough to create a beach berm of rolled pebbles, and to sustain cultural activities. Artifacts of the Early Neolithic-Neolithic tradition, including ostrich eggshell vessels, beads, lithics, and grinding tools, provide a context for reconstructing human occupation of the site through the close of the 6th millennium BP. Cultural abandonment, as well as increasing amounts of sand upsection, evaporite precipitation, and the formation of large (5 m) polygonal cracks, marked the final desiccation of the playa. Comparison of the AMS dates from Umm Akhtar Playa to a compilation of 536 published radiocarbon dates corroborate a period of enhanced surface water storage in Egypt and northern Sudan from 8100-6000 BP. This ‘wet’ phase appears to lag the Northern Hemisphere seasonal insolation maximum centered at 10,400 BP, and the greatest frequency of African lake highstands (9500-8500 BP).

So we know they had grasslands and 1500 years of seasonal rain before they went bonedry about 7000 years ago. Not enough time to erode Mister Sphinx.

Now we have a question. It took some kind of chisel and hammer to carve Mister Sphinx.

Has any remains of tools capable of working that stone Sphinx been uncovered that predates the Old Kingdom? Remember you can use a chisel made of hard obsidian on that soft crumbly stone but the stone tends to splinter and shatter when you strike it with too much force on the stone that forms the head. Wedge cutting is better, when worked with wooden mallets and animal horn or copper tools. When did copper show up?

https://nefertiti.iwebland.com/trades/metals.htm

About 7000 years ago at the earliest.

Let us look at the nearest sizaqble groups of Egyptians to Giza circa 7000 Before present.

https://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/GeogHist/histories/Oldcivilization/Egyptology/Ecological/magf4a.htm

Mostly grain farmers, herders, and fishermen living in villages. This condition persisited for the most part until about 6000 thousand years before today.

The hardest, and yet so eroded it is much too small to fit the body; apparrently long enough ago the Egyptians recarved it back when the supposedly original builder built it.

Probably when Thutmoses the fourth put his stupid Sthele between its paws.

Of course you could always buy into the theory that the face was carved to resemble one of these gentlemen:

https://guardians.net/egypt/sphinx/sphinx1.htm

I think that gives an idea that the Sphinx has been dug out at least four times.

???

You won't get the date it was carved with argon dating, you get the date the rock was formed. Which would mean you get the youngest date if the sphynx rock didn't form in the same time, deeper is earlier. If you take a piece of the rock on the edge now, and take some plantlife from it, you'll get a date of a days to decades when wind deposited it on it, and it somehow managed to stay there. The layer of rock that was revealed to the world the moment the carving was finished is long gone, eroded away, whether it was recarved or not.

[/QUOTE]

https://maps.unomaha.edu/Maher/geo117...diometric.html

You core drill the rock at selected sites to date the formation date.(Control), then you massspectrograph the surface samples to date the contamination against the core groups. Rock chiselled face is then dated. If you get lucky you find a piece of bone chisel stuck in the sculpture You carbon 14 that.

There are ways to do this. It isn't easy but you can measure the artifact with a lot less guessing than looking at runnels.

Speaking of erosion-waterborne versus windborne; has anyone on this forum ever sandblasted limestone? I am curious if you could describe the difference between wetblasting and dryblasting if you noticed any.

The pyramid in question was surrounded by a massive cofferdammed ramp that wrapped it.

Would the ramp be able to handle the constant weight of the traffic? Similarily would the skids be able to handle the weight of the stones?

Anyway on thing the pyramids show is that the Egyptians were much more scientifically advanced, and had much more knowledge than the established Egyptians say they had. (The exact dimensions of the Earth wrapped up inside the great pyramid for example.)

See, I've always felt that the mathematical equations contained in the Pyramid don't prove much of anything either way. They could have been contained in the Pyramid purely by accident. Or, might have been contained in them inherently through the shape and construction of the thing.

If we spot date the Sphinx, head flanks and rump, I think you will be surprised to find the head to be the part carved first.

But the head seems to be in much better repair than the rest of body. Granted the head itself may be older, but the carving of the human face is much younger. I.E. could it have originally been a lion head that was recarved as human at a later date. Have either of you seen Frank Domingo's forensic sketches?

Most notably, the erosion PATTERNS on the sphynx are from rain: rivolutes. Water takes easiest way, and thus erodes that out; it will come together from multiple sources to form a single heavier flow; creating small verticles rounded crevices. This does not work with flooding water that rises up and then down again; it only happens with water landing on the sphynx and then flowing down it - that pattern of erosion is on the sphynx.

Don't forget to consider the Sphinx enclosure:

oh, yeah, they recarve something, plaster falls out, and they just happen to form, not 1, not even 2, not 3, no 4 things looking exactly like extremely modern vehicles, all in the same place, grouped nicely together and NO WHERE ELSE in the entirely of Egypt did recarving ever produce anything even close to resembling modern looking vehicles.

I don't necessarily buy that these things are depictions of modern craft. If there were a prior high tech civilization, Atlantis or call it what you will, wouldn't their craft look entirely different that our own? I think it's coincidence.

The Helocene climate of North Africa was one of wide shallow lakes, grasslands and seasonal rainfall. To be honest we don't have good data from that region of the world because nobody has done the crap with the tree rings and the soil cores, seed spore counts, that we've done in Europe and North America.

But could the climate have been different, perhaps tropical, if the axis of the Earth had changed at some point in antiquity.

The Piri Reis map was drawn 300 years before Antartica was discovered, and was said to be copied from older sources. What's even more unusual about it, is that it shows what the landmass of antartica looks like, under the ice cap. The last period of ice-free Antartic was what, 6000 years ago? What if the original source of the map was drawn at a time when the Earth's axis was different from it's present position, allowing for a warmer climate for Antartica, and thus a tropical climate for Egypt? Is that possible?


This is where we need an archeo-meteorologist!

[3DMaster]

Originally Posted by Damocles

Let me see if I can source some evidence;

https://www.dudeman.net/siriusly/ufo/art.shtml

Now consider Ezekiel;

https://www.cforc.com/kjv/Ezekiel/

All of that is the best evidence that something funny is going on in the skies and people are recording it to the best of their ability.

The Chinese had these;

https://hometown.hces.tc.edu.tw/eng/cultural/toys.htm

many of them around the time of Marco Polo.

Those are facts not in dispute not well known.

But the Egyptians did not have helicopters or aircraft of our complexity, or performance. Period.

Where is the industrial footprint?

You leave behind mines, foundries, and assembly sheds when you build those artifacts.

An artisan can make a Baghdad battery and escape notice.

But if you build a chariot we dig you up three thousand years later and find your stables and barracks.

Best wishes;

Well, I never said the Egyptians HAD them, did I? They could just have SEEN them. Or their ancesters had seen them, and they heard stories. Besides, who says they had to leave anything behind? Consider B5's Vorlons all about the 'not progressing too fast'. If there were aliens there who were like that, they may very well have destroyed all of the cool toys without leaving any evidence of them behind because we were progressing to fast. :shrugs:

[3DMaster]

Originally Posted by Damocles

The Helocene climate of North Africa was one of wide shallow lakes, grasslands and seasonal rainfall. To be honest we don't have good data from that region of the world because nobody has done the crap with the tree rings and the soil cores, seed spore counts, that we've done in Europe and North America.

And that's stated in that site with exactly how much evidence?

So we know they had grasslands and 1500 years of seasonal rain before they went bonedry about 7000 years ago. Not enough time to erode Mister Sphinx.

Well, if Mr. Sphynx like some say is more like 10,000 - 12,500 years old, it would be 3,000 to 5,500 years, and at a time when the last ice age ended, and there was MUCH more rain.

Now we have a question. It took some kind of chisel and hammer to carve Mister Sphinx.

Has any remains of tools capable of working that stone Sphinx been uncovered that predates the Old Kingdom? Remember you can use a chisel made of hard obsidian on that soft crumbly stone but the stone tends to splinter and shatter when you strike it with too much force on the stone that forms the head. Wedge cutting is better, when worked with wooden mallets and animal horn or copper tools. When did copper show up?

https://nefertiti.iwebland.com/trades/metals.htm

About 7000 years ago at the earliest.

You wouldn't need hard obsidian, you can use softer stone. Some stones are sharper than our artificial metal tools. They could have been using them. Plus of course, something WIPED them out, virtually COMPLETELY. A natural disaster of immense magnitudes; can easily destroy and wash away tools. And if it IS done by a previous advanced civilization, they probably didn't use hammer and chisel at all.

Let us look at the nearest sizaqble groups of Egyptians to Giza circa 7000 Before present.

https://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/GeogHist/histories/Oldcivilization/Egyptology/Ecological/magf4a.htm

Mostly grain farmers, herders, and fishermen living in villages. This condition persisited for the most part until about 6000 thousand years before today.

Again, stated without evidence. That's their interpretation. Obviously if the Sphynx was carved some 10,000 years ago, there were a civilization there, wiped out beyond nearly all evidence.

Probably when Thutmoses the fourth put his stupid Sthele between its paws.

Of course you could always buy into the theory that the face was carved to resemble one of these gentlemen:

https://guardians.net/egypt/sphinx/sphinx1.htm

I think that gives an idea that the Sphinx has been dug out at least four times.

https://maps.unomaha.edu/Maher/geo117...diometric.html

You core drill the rock at selected sites to date the formation date.(Control), then you massspectrograph the surface samples to date the contamination against the core groups. Rock chiselled face is then dated. If you get lucky you find a piece of bone chisel stuck in the sculpture You carbon 14 that.

There are ways to do this. It isn't easy but you can measure the artifact with a lot less guessing than looking at runnels.

Speaking of erosion-waterborne versus windborne; has anyone on this forum ever sandblasted limestone? I am curious if you could describe the difference between wetblasting and dryblasting if you noticed any.

Wait, wait. You're saying that the head WAS recarved even if the Sphynx is young, but you're saying the head will show it was carved first anyhow? Any evidence of the earliest carving would be removed with the recarving, so the Sphynx head would STILL show to be the last carving, not the first either way.

Second if it's recarved, as even you say it is judging by the obvious missmatch in size, then you'd have to do it for not just the head, but all of the Sphynx - you'd get the date of the youngest recarving after all, which has nothing to do with the actual age of the Sphynx, and the first time it was carved.

And I would say it's even more guessing. Contamination? The biggest contamination would be our industrial polutents; some of them might very well have removed earlier pollutants. An erosion pattern is an erosion pattern, and if that pattern can't have happened before at least this many years ago, you know it has to be at least that old.

Finally, radio-dating is rather useless. Unlike 'established' science would like you to believe, radioactive decay is anything but stable, it changes constantly. That's just one problem, but even if it were stable, any radio-dating will only work properly until the last time there was a significant climatologicaly change. With such a change, a difference in radioactive particles in the atmosphere and rock (if it's happened because of a (radioa-active) meteorite impact we'll have no idea about, and the whole dating is hinged on that we know the starting concentration of radioactive to non-radiaoctive decayed material.

Originally Posted by jjrakman

But could the climate have been different, perhaps tropical, if the axis of the Earth had changed at some point in antiquity.

The Piri Reis map was drawn 300 years before Antartica was discovered, and was said to be copied from older sources. What's even more unusual about it, is that it shows what the landmass of antartica looks like, under the ice cap. The last period of ice-free Antartic was what, 6000 years ago? What if the original source of the map was drawn at a time when the Earth's axis was different from it's present position, allowing for a warmer climate for Antartica, and thus a tropical climate for Egypt? Is that possible?

They SAY at least 400,000 years since Antartica was last not covered in ice. However, that is based on carbon dating, which is just plain silly. Carbon dating - even if it was totally the way the conventional 'scientists' sy it - is useless beyond 50,000. Of course, in real life if it were scientifically sound it's useless beyond the last major climatological change some 12,500 years ago. In real life though, the dating is ueless all together.

You should read a bit on carbon dates found, it's fantastically laughable. 1600 years here, 1000 years in the next tree over, and another tree a meter further it's 2,000 years, and then they say the samples are 1500 years old nicely in the middle.

[WarMachine]

Originally Posted by Damocles

Let me see if I can source some evidence;

<snip>

But the Egyptians did not have helicopters or aircraft of our complexity, or performance. Period.

Where is the industrial footprint?

You leave behind mines, foundries, and assembly sheds when you build those artifacts.

<snip>

This bit has been bugging me all night. We have no idea what a previous, technological civilization would leave behind -- we can merely extrapolate based on our "verifiable" history(and there is a lot of room to maneuver on that score!).

We're not even sure where they're build-site/industrial center would be.

Additionally, if "Catastrophy X"® were to happen today, reducing current Human society to the Stone Age or worse, how much of our industrial footprint would be left 500-1000 years from now? Not much.

I am reminded of a WW2 book, "American Guerilla in the Phillipines", about a US soldier who escaped the surrender at Bataan/Corrigador and fought in the jungle until 1944. When they were trying to rig up a telegraph system, the main problem they had wasn't the Japanese...it was simple bandits, who would steal the copper wire in the night right off of the trees, to sell back to the Japanese.

Most of our industry, if left unattended, would simply rust away inside of 1000 years; add in riots/looting/wars/land-clearance/all-of-the-above, and most of our signature will be dust and rust, figuratively overnight.

As a straight-out speculation: Let's suppose a "technological" civilization existed c.11000-10000BC; now, completely destroy it -- the means are largely irrelevant. knock whoever survived back to a pre-Stone Age level.

Now, run the clock forward c.5000 years.

What would be left?