Where Are The Fleets?

[Dayton3]

Both the original BG premier and most of the novelization backs up the idea that the Colonial Fleet consisted of just 5 battlestars. Though the novelizaton does mention "fleet battlecruisers" being destroyed in the original attack.

But in "The Living Legend", its openly mentioned that the Pegasus was part of the destroyed "Fifth Fleet". And in "Take The Celestra" its mentioned that the Celestras commander once commanded the "Battlestar Rikon and 600 fighting ships".

So where were all the other warships in the premier episode?

[radama]

Originally posted by Dayton3
Both the original BG premier and most of the novelization backs up the idea that the Colonial Fleet consisted of just 5 battlestars. Though the novelizaton does mention "fleet battlecruisers" being destroyed in the original attack.

But in "The Living Legend", its openly mentioned that the Pegasus was part of the destroyed "Fifth Fleet". And in "Take The Celestra" its mentioned that the Celestras commander once commanded the "Battlestar Rikon and 600 fighting ships".

So where were all the other warships in the premier episode?

I think you answered you own question there.By the time of the premeire episode,that's what was left of the Colonial Fleet.Five battlestars on their way to a "peace conference".Otherwise how else would the "Galactica" be the "only surviving battlestar?"

[repcisg]

Now I’ve been beaten up before for saying this, but nowhere in the Pilot or series is there any mention of how many Battlestars were in the Colonial fleet. Only after the series was canceled and fans kept asking did the number 5 come out. According to old preproduction scripts now out on the net, Larson did want 5 in the opening scene, but later in the same scripts he implies there others as well as many smaller ships.

One publication, from Space Waist, and often quoted said there were originally 12. That number has never been challenged either. So the issue is really up in the air. Personally I take the number 5 as much to small, I have counted 22 in the pilot and the formation suggests 24. Which is a much more reasonable number considering Adama’s willingness to not push his opinions of the Cylons with Pres. Adar.

[LucianG]

repcisg,

I was thinking of you last night as I watched it. If there weren't more than 5 Battlestars there at Cimtar, the folks doing the models and filming did lousy job keeping up with where everything was. As always, I like your analysis on the numbers and positions, and I believe, your thoughts that some of the others must have escaped. I can see one or more limping off into deep space and showing up in season two, three, four, or more. If there had only been a season two, three, four, or more.

Lucian

[kingfish]

If you want to see the ships of the fleet, Steve is the man. He has done a number of renders including the famed Libirian Patrol which can be found here. He also did one of a Defender taking on a Basestar.

[Stevew]

Actually Darrell did the defender vs the Baststar but I can't find it and Fabio used my meshes for The Libran Patrol
Here is the rest of the fleet and some Cylon ships
https://www.renderosity.com/gallery.e...key=1068490418
S

[Dayton3]

Originally posted by repcisg
Now I’ve been beaten up before for saying this, but nowhere in the Pilot or series is there any mention of how many Battlestars were in the Colonial fleet. Only after the series was canceled and fans kept asking did the number 5 come out. According to old preproduction scripts now out on the net, Larson did want 5 in the opening scene, but later in the same scripts he implies there others as well as many smaller ships.

One publication, from Space Waist, and often quoted said there were originally 12. That number has never been challenged either. So the issue is really up in the air. Personally I take the number 5 as much to small, I have counted 22 in the pilot and the formation suggests 24. Which is a much more reasonable number considering Adama’s willingness to not push his opinions of the Cylons with Pres. Adar.

How do you come up with that many Battlestars in the Pilot? Not that I disagree with you. I would be thrilled to think their were a large number of battlestars there. But I never saw it.

All I remember were the five battlestars. The Atlantia exploded. Galactica withdrew, and three were seen still being attacked behind Galactica.

where do all the others come in?

[Ian_W359]

If I may be of assistance, I have the Space Waste 'Colonial Warriors Technical Manual' and it does list 12 Battlestars, their colony of origin and their year of presumed destruction -

In chronological order (according to the book - forgive me if the dates seem a little odd) -

6531
Bellerophon - Scorpia

6538 (The Battle Of Molokay[?])
Prometheus - Libra

6539
Poseidon - Aquaria

6547
Rycon (Commander Kronus' Ship) - Pisces
Olympia - Taura

6549 (The Armistice - The Final Destruction)
Argo - Sagitara
Atlantia (President Adar's ship) - Aries
Columbia - Virgon
Pacifica - Canceria
Solaria - Leo

6551 (The Battle Of Gamoray) (also listed as the battle of Molokay?!)
Pegasus (Commander Cain's ship) - Gemini (destruction not confirmed)

Not destroyed
Galactica - Caprica

I'm not sure how this info relates to other sources (websites for example), but I hope it is of help.

All the best,
Ian_W359

[repcisg]

Dayton3,

I did an image analysis of the Pilot, which I have laid out at

https://www.geocities.com/repcisg/index.html

There was a lot of math behind some of the positioning of the ships. Some detailing remains to be done and I have an image around here some where showing #10 and #11 as numbered on image 7 of the web site. To go with this formation I wrote a simulation program to determin if there were too many ships. Based on the perfomance of the Galactica's weapons during the series and asumming complete suprise the formation works for 900 attackers.

The Galactica turns left as seen in the film while the right rear ships turn right and survive. On #18 pitches up and escapes that way. About 10% of the time #19 does the same. So the sim says 5 Battlestars survived maybe 6 (there is that number 5 again).

For those looking to do some fan fiction, there are some stories just beging to be told here. A group of three Battlestars (#22 comes away damaged) and one, alone and far from home.

[Westy]

that there were only 5 Battlestars at Cimtar. It's also been well established that there were only 12 Battlestars ever constructed. The ship on which the armistice talks between the colonies and the Cylons were to take place was the Star Kobol (not a battlestar)....so those pictures of the Battlestars in the window floating in space in the background were not from the Atlantia...they were from the Star Kobol.

[Dawg]

Westy - are you refering to the sequence of scenes at the beginning of Saga of a Star World that my avatar comes from?

<---

If so, I believe you are slightly mistaken. That sequence takes place aboard the Atlantia, President Adar's battlestar. I do not recall seeing any scene that depicted the actual armistice talks - that happened before the beginning of Saga, which was the Council of 12 congratulating themselves on bringing peace to humankind.

If I'm mistaken about this, please let me know.

I'm not, but let me know if I am.

I am
Dawg

[Westy]

So that IS from the Atlantia then?

Over the years I've had to continually readjust my thinking on the precise sequence of events...the movie didn't do a very good job of continuity here. I thought the talks never took place. On which ship did Adar give his speech to the council?

[repcisg]

I have the original Pilot as broadcast in 1978. The image Dawg uses comes from the Atlantia. Adar and Adama are standing in front of the window of the right side meeting or council room of the Atlantia. In Adar's speech given just moments before he clearly states the final meeting with the Cylons has yet to take place.

With the exception of Robert Thurston's books, virtually all published material on Battlestar Galactica was NOT created or supported by the production team, but was made up by the authors in order to capitalize on the Battlestar name. This material can in no way be called cannon.

For me personally, if it is in the film - it is cannon. If it is in a Robert Thurston book AND does not conflict with the film is can be used as cannon. Everything else is fan fiction.

[Westy]

It's interesting, and I wish that were the case, but I can't believe there were that many Battlestars there. I wonder what that lay out would look like in 3D...hmmmm...I can do that. I'll get back to you heh

[repcisg]

From the front it looks like a serpents head. Ships #18 and #19 are the eyes. The five ships leading the main group are the toung.

This may be one of the reasons Larson fire Cola.

[Westy]

all in a single plane? Do you have any elevations? This is a quick rendering, no star field, no materials, just a single distant light.

https://groups.msn.com/BattlestarGala...to&PhotoID=198

[repcisg]

It's in three dimentions, the lead ships are low while the trailing ships are above. In the front ranks the following ship is above and behind. The right and left front ranks form the lower mouth while the second rank forms the upper mouth. The two ships in the center are the highest and form the eyes. The Galactica leads the group that forms the rear of the left jaw.

I did work it out at one time, some where in my archives I have the formation laid out from the head on view. If I get time to day I will look for it.

[repcisg]

What convinced me I have it right is the formation worked itself out. I just took it where my analysis took me. If the images were truely random the no formation would have emerged.

[Westy]

I'd like to recreate those scenes you use in a mock up. I think you might be on to something.

[137th Gebirg]

I'm not entirely convinced there were more than 5 Battlestars in Saga. It was clearly said in the pilot that, other than the Galactica, no ships were able to launch their Vipers. If there were that many Battlestars, SOMETHING has to have been launched. The Cylons couldn't have caught all of the ships off guard that quickly. With over 20 ships in the fleet, the probabilities are statistically low. I believe it was also mentioned that the armistice was not yet signed. Remember the Serena scenes as they were awaiting news of the armistice signing. You don't think that such an historical occasion would not be captured by live video footage?

Here's my take on the whole "fleets" thing.

There were 13 fleets.

Assuming that there were only 12 Battlestars, one from each Colony, each fleet used a Battlestar as its command ship, much like how we use aircraft carriers as battlegroup flagships. Under each Battlestar's Flag are a number of smaller battleships and other support craft.

Why 13 fleets, you ask? Fleets 2 through 13 were each a fleet with one Battlestar and the fore-mentioned support craft, but the 1st Fleet was only rarely called into action, as it was made up strictly of all the operational Battlestars, possibly for strictly ceremonial displays used in Colonial holidays like "Armaments Day" that Apollo briefly mentioned at one time. As it seemed that almost all support craft were destroyed or under repair by the time of the Holocaust, the fleet of five Battlestars we saw in "Saga" was, in fact, the final deployment of the First, or Presidential, Fleet. There may have been other smaller unseen support craft in that last fleet (such as a reference to the ship "Star Kobol" on which the aborted armistice was supposed to have been signed), but were so small and quickly destroyed and weren't really worth mentioning. If the war was going as badly as it seemed, then there was no reason to have as many fleets as the Colonies originally used and spread too thin, so they consolodated everything back into the 1st Fleet for a last-ditch show of force to let the Cylons know they meant business, not that it mattered in the end.

Just my theory on fleet deployments.

[Westy]

"It was clearly said in the pilot that, other than the Galactica, no ships were able to launch their Vipers."

Tigh: "What's the count?"
Rigil: "67 fighters in all sir, 25 of our own."

Where did the other 42 vipers come from? I always assumed that a few Battlestars managed to get some off after all.

[repcisg]

Ah, first off the comment about no other Battlestars launching fighters was made at the beginning of the attack. After the attack when the Galactica had moved to rendezvous with her fighters she picked 67 in all, 25 of her own. This shows other Battlestars did get Viper launched. In the simulation I wrote I found that if I assigned a strike group to teach Battlestar, an each group had sub groups assigned to attack specific parts of the ship, with a five ship suicide group for each Battlestar. The attack works against 24 Battlestars. Worse for the fleet those attack ships who’s Target has been destroyed move on to reinforce the attacks on other Battlestars. The attack “rolls” over the fleet like a wave from left to right. Some of the Battlestars on the right side of the fleet do get some fighters launched, but by then they face overwhelming odds.

Interestingly, the fighters launched from the Galactica’s right bay engage the strike group heading for #18, giving this ship time to escape by pitching up and accelerating up and to the right away from the attack. The fur-ball around the Galactica also breaks up the attack groups heading for #20, 21 and 22. Giving them time to turn to the right and accelerate away from the attack. Now this group is followed and #22 gets beat-up, but because the Cylons are forced to chase their targets they are strung out and can not close with all three ships before they can launch their own fighters. Once that happens the Cylons are wiped out. But by this time this groups is far far away and out of touch with the main fleet.

A few thoughts on fleet organization. Even in war time you cannot keep all your ships ‘UP’ all the time, they need maintenance and upkeep, crews need time off. In real like most fleets keep one ship three ‘UP’ one is in port for light maintenance and crew R&R. This ship is available on short notice. One ship would be ‘DOWN’ for major service, overhaul and upgrades. A twenty four ship ‘Home’ fleet would break out this way, eight (8) ships would be ‘UP’ and online of these five(5) would form the main defense force, the other three would work as scouts and conduct perimeter patrols. A second group of eight (8) would be in port for crew R&R and light maintenance, available on short notice. This group would reinforce the main defense group if needed. The remaining eight (8) ships would be down for major maintenance or upgrades.

Now for a major ceremonial event like the peace conference conceivably you could pull all your ships together to put on a major show.

[repcisg]

But a good point is made, other ships and smaller “Fleets” must have existed. All governments that claim territory must have military forces available to police and exercise sovernty over that territory. Even today this is basic requirment of all governments. so what happened to these smaller units, many would not have been in the direct path of the attack. where did they go?

[Westy]

and went back to kick the Cylons out of the homeworld system :-)

repcisg, I read and applied your Z elevation information to my own 3D fleet layout, with some good success I might add. I think some of the ships locations might be a bit off, nothing too terrible though...I think it's workable. I'll update my layout when you dig through and find your head on view. The only problem I can find is that some of those other ships should still be visible in a few of these shots (which is why I think the ship locations might be a bit off). It's probably workable though...just needs some tweaking here and there. I'm doing this in AutoCAD 2000 for precise placement, so it's accurate enough.

[repcisg]

Good, Westy. If my memory serves me correct, I will need to dig out the program but the Z elevation should be about 3000 meters or yards. Any way 3000 sould right for the elevation.

[Westy]

How many meters (yards) long is a Battlestar on your drawing?

[repcisg]

I have been using the 6080 foot size, or one nautical mile. I haven't had a chance to look at the program for quite some time but a vertical seperation of 3000 yards would be 1.7 miles

[Westy]

I'll use 6080 feet and 3000 yards from lowest to highest and see what happens. What program did you use to figure this stuff out with?

[shiningstar]

Thanks for posting this thread I was really curious how
they could list the pegasus as destroyed and then see it in a different ep with Lloyd Bridges commanding. But since he
was such a great actor that was a ? I could let die. Although I'm glad it was answered here.

[repcisg]

Hi Westy,

To figure this stuff out I used good old pencil and paper, lots of paper and lots of trig combined with a number of optics formulas. Fun stuff, well for me anyway.

I wrote the computer sim, I have been doing that sort of thing off and on over tha last 30+ years.

I still haven't found that image, I may have to regenerate it, oh-well, I curious to see what you have come up with.