08: Living Legend

[Eric Paddon]

This thread will be for discussion on changes etc. on adapting episode #8 "Living Legend" and conforming the story to a continuous season arc storyline.

[Senmut]

If anything, this ep deserved to be a three-parter. I so wish we could have seen more on Cain, and his background with Adama. These two obviously have a history, as well as seeing more background on Sheba would have been nice.
I would ask, did Adama and Cain ever serve together, as younger officers?

[BRG]

I had a shot of the Battlestar Galactica video game a while ago. In the game it suggested tht Adama and Cain were both young Viper pilots together.

I'm not for one minute trying to suggest that the game is part of the official Galactica canon, but it is interesting. And like yourself Senmut, I would also like to see Adama & Cain's past explored.
BRG

[Eric Paddon]

A lot of enjoyment came from doing this one since it is without question not simply one of the best BG episodes ever, but probably among the best in all sci-fi TV.

But even a magnificent episode like this needed some tweaks to iron out things that we can dismiss when they go by on-screen but not when writing a longer novelized treatment.

#1-The opening patrol scene where Sheba and Bojay end up opening fire on Apollo and Starbuck. First question to ask is, why didn't Our Heroes (an old term for Apollo and Starbuck that I remember fondly from old discussion days years ago) realize these were vipers right away? Some new dialogue to show that they were both caught so flat-footed and found themselves trying to escape quickly, they had no reaction time to do a rear scan check for ID which would have shown the attacking ships to be vipers like theirs.

#2-Setting the stage for an Apollo-Sheba relationship. Since "Hand Of God" is where we finally get it out in the open, the trick is to plant the seeds in a subtle way. I wanted Apollo to be left in a state of awe at being put in the precarious situation he was placed in, which made him want to know who the pilot who was outflying him was, and then when he sees the holo image of Sheba in Cain's office, his initial attraction/fascination with her is that someone so attractive and feminine could be the one who had demonstrated such superior skills. From then on, it's a case of Apollo showing a mild interest in her in terms of wanting to find reasons to talk to her further and learn more about her, but then stopping himself from going any further as he feels guilt over Serina hit him. I don't see Sheba as receptive to him yet, or sensing any kind of partial interest on his part in her, until the events of WOTG.

#3-More backstory for Sheba and the whole Sheba-Cassie conflict (and the Cain-Cassie romance). This requires learning more about Sheba's mother. I wrote my own backstory for who she was, what she did, how she died etc. (and gave her the name Bethany), but anyone is free to go in any direction on this. The one thing about Sheba's mother that should always be consistent in anyone's version is that Sheba is the very image of her mother appearance wise. This is explicitly stated in the original novelization, and all one has to do is then realize that if you were casting this part for a flashback sequence then you'd immediately pick June Lockhart for the obvious reason. To add to this, the fact that Sheba is the image of her mother I think best explains why Cain couldn't open up to her and lean on her for support after he'd lost his wife, because as I have him say to Cassie in my adaptation, every time he looked at Sheba's face, all he could see was her mother and then get hit by the guilt over not having been there at the time of her death.

#4-Was Colonel Tolen in on Sheba and Bojay's little mutiny plan? This needed clarifying so I wrote a scene of Tolen quietly telling Sheba and Bojay beforehand that while he sympathized with what they were doing, he couldn't lend active support to it.

#5-What happened to the Imperious Leader's baseship during the attack on Gomorrah (my preferred spelling just because I like using the OT city name)? I put forth the idea that it made an actual landing on the planet, perhaps docking with something like a dirigible mooring mast (which would be the way any battlestar or baseship could in effect land on a planet) and that during the Colonial attack, the baseship was knocked away from its mooring tethers and thus rendered inoperable in terms of being able to contribute to the battle.

#6-I decided to lay the foundation for keeping Spektor (Young Lords) around in the future by having Baltar recommend Spektor as the new base commander on Gomorrah, following the almost certain execution of the base commander by the Imperious Leader after what happened (the base commander clearly never told anyone about the raids from the Pegasus, and I think it's important to play up the base commander as the one who paid the ultimate price because there has to be a legit reason why Baltar got off the hook with the Imperious Leader after the events of this episode)

#7-Borrowing a page from the whole "Mission Galactica" concept, the adaptation of "Fire In Space" takes place just after the events of this episode, with Baltar, after the destruction of the two baseships and the disappearance of the Pegasus, decides to regroup by mounting the suicide fighter attack (thus my adaptation ends with a "To Be Continued" note).

Other things I worked in too, but these were the most significant changes. All done in the name of streamlining and tightening in some spots, expanding character depth in others but not changing anything of the basic plot which I think is flawless.

[Raptor]

Not sure if anyone else noticed this, but in the DVD version, a section where Cain was talking to Apollo + Starbuck was, IMHO, inserted in the wrong place. Not sure if this was just a flaw in the broadcast or something else.

IRCC, you have Cain meeting A+S, they return to fleet, Cain meets Cassie, then He's talking to A+S again

This little thing is the main issue I have with this episode. Apart from them (the creators of the DVD's) leaving out bits but putting them in the 'Deleted Scenes' part.

[SpyOne]

That sounds familiar, as in I have read about it as a Variant Version of that episode.
The edit may have happened when they packaged it for syndication, or the DVD may derive from a telemovie version more than the original airing.

[Tabitha]

Wouldnt it be intersting if Cain had mentioned that he had heard some radio traffic of maybe other ships, prehaps not battlestars, but destroyers, cruisers, ect... that escaped? After all, even the colonies wouldnt be dumb enough to assemble an ENTIRE fleet at once place. After all, there would need to be ships out doing military duties, such as space lane patrols and other functions. That being the case, wouldnt it stand to reason that at least SOME other ships survived? What about the colonial R&D base? surely a military secret that the cylons wouldnt have found right away, and my idea here, the origional battlestar, now a retired colonial training platform, to teach pilots to take off and land on a battlestar, surely they had something like that which wouldnt be a primary target for the initial cylon raid? If so, couldnt it be out there somewhere itself? I would have loved to have seen the look on Adama's face, "Oh by the way old boy, you left a perfectly viable fleet out there when you and the rest ran away from the fight..." outch... stinger there huh...

tabbi

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Tabitha

... After all, there would need to be ships out doing military duties, such as space lane patrols and other functions. That being the case, wouldnt it stand to reason that at least SOME other ships survived?...

Thats one of the ideas I've got bouncing round my head for that FS2- BSG TC I've got planed.

I have really got to get round to doing some more work on those Colonial ships...
(retexturing highly detailed ship models for in game is nasty... )

[Eric Paddon]

How big a "Fleet" was in the Colonial military we never found out. I always saw it like a naval taskforce that might consist of a carrier or two and some support ships. Not necessarily a Fleet of many dozens of ships. In my vision, Cain had a second battlestar with him whose commander was junior to him, and maybe the equivalent of what in our navy would be a heavy cruiser or something like that. Ultimately, allowing for the losses Cain had to have suffered in the Battle Of Molocay it would theoretically be possible for him to have loaded survivors from other ships in his "Fifth Fleet" after it was clear the battle for Molocay was lost.

[Kaith Rustaz]

TNS mentioned a supply depot. Considering the TOS cylon war had gone on for 1,000 years, once would assume a well organized supply system. IN fact, I think I recall cloaked fuel depots being mentioned in the novel. Given Adama's obvious position (member of the quarum), and the Galactica's position of importance, combined with Cains own, it has to have been there. I think we just didn't see it as it was 'background'. An expansion of TLL might have ended with Cain heading out to visit those lost outposts rather than the mystery we were left with.

[Eric Paddon]

It's kind of funny, but on the matter of a battlestar's need for fuel, I always felt it was implausible that an advanced civilization wouldn't have tried to develop propulsion systems whereby normal fuel sources wouldn't be needed. Kind of like modifying the principle of having a self-generating set of engines run by nuclear power or some other reactor driven system. After all, we have atomic submarines and atomic powered aircraft carriers that can do that sort of thing, so why not more advanced battlestars?

I therefore theorized that the Galactica was a newer type battlestar that had such engines and thus didn't need fuel to power herself but that traditional fuel sources were needed for the other ships in the Fleet. The Pegasus though, would have been an older battlestar that didn't have such engines and needed conventional fuel and thus would be more inclined to look for fuel depots to raid etc. to stay in business so far from home as she did.

Cain incidentally does refer to Gomorrah (I spell it that way only because I like paralleling it to the Biblical city) as a "remote supply base" before he discovered that the Cylons had exterminated the Delphians and turned it into their outer capital.

[Senmut]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

#1-The opening patrol scene where Sheba and Bojay end up opening fire on Apollo and Starbuck. First question to ask is, why didn't Our Heroes (an old term for Apollo and Starbuck that I remember fondly from old discussion days years ago) realize these were vipers right away? Some new dialogue to show that they were both caught so flat-footed and found themselves trying to escape quickly, they had no reaction time to do a rear scan check for ID which would have shown the attacking ships to be vipers like theirs.

Since the Pegasus was operating in a Cylon-controlled sector, stealth would be of great importance. Deactivating each Viper's transponder ID would make sense, since it would deprive the Cylons of something to home in on. Hence, when Sheba and Bojay intercept S&A, they are "rigged for silent running" as it were. If Our Heroes were transmitting anything, the attacking Vipers wouldn't pick it up, since they wouldn't expect the scanner blips to be anything but Cylons, and wouldn't have their receivers on. Only upon getting closer does Sheba notice something amiss.

[Senmut]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

It's kind of funny, but on the matter of a battlestar's need for fuel, I always felt it was implausible that an advanced civilization wouldn't have tried to develop propulsion systems whereby normal fuel sources wouldn't be needed. Kind of like modifying the principle of having a self-generating set of engines run by nuclear power or some other reactor driven system. After all, we have atomic submarines and atomic powered aircraft carriers that can do that sort of thing, so why not more advanced battlestars?

I therefore theorized that the Galactica was a newer type battlestar that had such engines and thus didn't need fuel to power herself but that traditional fuel sources were needed for the other ships in the Fleet. The Pegasus though, would have been an older battlestar that didn't have such engines and needed conventional fuel and thus would be more inclined to look for fuel depots to raid etc. to stay in business so far from home as she did.

Cain incidentally does refer to Gomorrah (I spell it that way only because I like paralleling it to the Biblical city) as a "remote supply base" before he discovered that the Cylons had exterminated the Delphians and turned it into their outer capital.

Well, until we know the precise nature of "tylium", we just have to go with the flow. If we accept that it can blow up a whole planet, it must obviously pack alot of energy into a comparitively small space. Perhaps, once refined, it is usable in some way not dissimilar to uranium or plutonium, in controlled fission?

[Eric Paddon]

Hmm, tylium as a counterpart to uranium fueling a self-generating reactor engine is something I never considered but now that I think of it, would have been a better way to go. That could allow for the differentiation between "Tylium" (equivalent to uranium) versus "Solium" (equivalent to conventional diesel fuel).

[Eric Paddon]

Here's one change I wanted to make. In the raid by Starbuck and Boomer where they set charges to the command center, Apollo and the rest run into them and he asks, "Did you find the command center?" Starbuck says yes, Apollo asks where, and Starbuck points back and shouts, "THERE!" and then the command center explodes.

It would have been better I think if you'd had the explosion after Apollo asks the question, and then Starbuck could just grin sheepishly and point back, "There." with a chuckle. Would have made for a great Starbuck moment!

[Senmut]

Sad the film editor for that one didn't think of it, EP. You're right. It would have been a totally Starbuckian moment.

[Eric Paddon]

It would have been the director's lack of imagination on that point. Ben Casey needed to do a touch-up job on that scene! (For the benefit of those who don't get the joke, Vince Edwards the director of LL, was the star of the "Ben Casey" TV show in the early 60s).

[sharpe26]

I wonder about one thing. There's a slight mention of somesort of code Cain was unable to break. It 's big what if but, what if somehow the galacticas codebreakers manage to break the code?


Some interesting repercussions I feel.

[Senmut]

Well, from what little info we have, it must be a newer code. In TLP, Athena checks all known Cylon codes, which apparently Colonial crypto has cracked. Since Cain has been out of the loop for two yahrens, he has not been privy to Fleet Intel updates, and so has not got the cypher key to the latest Cylon code which refers to the Colonial Fleet. Presumably the Galactica had her mainframe updated during her last layover before the Holocaust. We can assume that the Pegasus' systems got an update from the Galactica's.

[Eric Paddon]

There certainly has to be some undeciphered aspects of Cylon code from the Galactica's standpoint since one must assume logically that if all of the Cylon code was known, the Cylons couldn't have carried out a sneak attack in the first place.

[Senmut]

They were able to by using their electronic jamming, and Baltar's duplicity. A new code coming on-line would have been a give-away that something big was up.

[KJ]

Originally Posted by Senmut

If anything, this ep deserved to be a three-parter. I so wish we could have seen more on Cain, and his background with Adama. These two obviously have a history, as well as seeing more background on Sheba would have been nice.
I would ask, did Adama and Cain ever serve together, as younger officers?

According to the novelization they did?

See the Berkley's Battlestar Galactica book; War Of The Gods inwhich it reveals Cain and Adama served on the Battlestar Cerberus together in the Cerberus Bronze Squadron Viper strike unit.

This was also further expanded upon in Maximum Press storyline Baptism Of Fire, where we learn the Battlestar Cerberus was under the command of one Commander Odysseus a Living Legend and hero of the colonies, in his own right. kind of like what Cain was going to be somewhat later on in his life etc.

KJ

[Eric Paddon]

The Cerberus background and matter of Commander Odysseus was a nice invention they did that I chose to incorporate into my own fanfic. The idea being that Adama and Cain served together on the Cerberus, then Cain got promoted which took him to the Pegasus. Adama stayed on the Cerberus a little longer, where he first met Tigh, and then went to the Rycon to serve under Commander Kronus and finally to his own command on the Galactica.

[KJ]

Does this fanfic show how Adama made Fleet Commander over Cain. Cos Cain is supposed to be under Adama in terms of rank in the Living Legend two parter. The Living Legend novelization says Cain was promoted after Adama not before, which explains why Adama could relive him of command and Cain was in the officers club thinking he went too far with his plan to force Adama into taking Gamoray.

Unless of course Adama's political route over the years with the Council Of Twelve in later years before and after the colonial holocaust gave him an advantage over Cain in the military. Or was Cain the Captain Kirk type in your eyes and was promoted higher later on to a "fleet Admiral" still but did something rebelious to get busted back to mere Commander, something he excels at?

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

Adama stayed on the Cerberus a little longer, where he first met Tigh, and then went to the Rycon to serve under Commander Kronus and finally to his own command on the Galactica.

Makes sense. But having Cain also serve elsewhere's or had at one time been a P.O.W. of the Cylons and their allies (before the Cylons turned on and killed them of course after they outlived their purpose) for a short period during the war before being freed and taking command of a ship of his own would also be a more logical change of pace for the two eventual commanders of the Galactica and Pegasus. Cain would logically follow Odysseus' style of command and learned off another military hero like Odysseus during his time onboard and had the time to grow closer to him than Adama ever did. Due to being around him much longer and serving on the Cerberus before and after Adama moved on.

Adama had Kronus to learn off afterwards didn't he? Seems you've got an opportunity to make Cain more fleshed out than Adama here?

Commander Odysseus himself is somebody i so wished was fleshed out in a Battlestar Galactica comic book series much more as well. Just like his mythological Greek namesake from the iliad. Perhaps he had a long and detailed history fighting in the war with the Cylons (Trojan war) and then spend many years trying to get home after the gods punished him for blinding Poseidon's son the Cyclops Polyphemus (Cylon?) Think Count Iblis and the beings from the ship of lights fighting over his fate in a battle of wills etc.

Certainly would be neat to make Odysseus and the Cerberus turn up in a fanfic of Battlestar Galactica's fan envisioned season 2 where the Galactica and Cerberus might meet up, and a older madder and perhaps more intimidating Odysseus could be a salvation or hinderance to the Galactica and her fleet? explaining Odysseus age might be a problem even for a race of humans who naturally age up to 200 yahrens or more. But he could always be "time displaced" due to tangling with higher being like Iblis or maybe John and the "Ships of light" chose him and his crew and plucked them for a particular higher purpose which had yet to be explained.

A Commander Odysseus who felt the wrath of Count Iblis first hand, or fighting a set of foes more dangerous than the Cylons might be a good tale to come up with fanfic wise.

Food for thought!

KJ

[Eric Paddon]

Originally Posted by Lord Kingjason

Does this fanfic show how Adama made Fleet Commander over Cain.

Yes, I've addressed that in some adaptations and other fanfics. If we go by the novelization's point of a seniority system existing based on when you got your commission first, I extrapolated that while Adama and Cain entered the Academy together I created a backstory incident of Cain getting suspended briefly from the Academy for a semester because during a training exercise he impulsively took charge of the group and while he had been right to do so, some by-the-book types demanded he get disciplined for this. So this meant Cain graduated after Adama and that meant that if Adama and Cain were ever of equal rank, Adama would be regarded as senior (obviously if one attains a higher rank than one commissioned earlier, that would trump seniority on that point) and thus Adama would have the right to be Fleet Commander. Of course you also have to add the fact that as President of the Council of Twelve, Adama's civilian title may also have enabled him to trump Cain on this point too.

In another fanfic, which was my story about how Cain met his wife (the revised version of this is posted on the Anne Lockhart message board at https://www.annelockhart.com/site/forum/index.php under the title "Distant Memories"), I established Cain being on the Pegasus as a Lieutenant/Captain, and that the Pegasus commander at the time could have in effect filled the next level of being a mentor/idol for Cain that Odysseus would have been aboard the Cerberus in his earlier career. Naturally there can be room for Cain to have served aboard another ship in the interlude or to put him on another ship altogether before he gets his command, but I was first concerned with establishing that Adama stayed on the Cerberus longer than Cain so he could meet Tigh on that ship, since I didn't think it could be plausible that Tigh would have been part of the same group when Cain would have been there.

[KJ]

What about a Commander Odysseus storyline with a young Adama and Cain first serving on the Cerberus and later on, evolve the story to show Odysseus struggles to get back home after the war in the form of Homer's Iliad Odyssey though.

Well thats more of an idea really, but at least i've given you a fair outline for a decent story that you guys in fandom to do right?



KJ

[Captain Hector]

Hi, I am new to the boards, but I just wanted to venture my 2 cents, if I may. I always thought this would be a great way to further devolp the characters, as they were, in relation to eachother. I always veiwed the Adama/Cain relationship akin to the real life comparasion of the Halsey/Sprurance relationship. While Halsey(Cain) was the flashier, more agresive take no prisoners commander, history proved Sprurance's(Adama) brilliance. That kind of understated brilliance, so that Adama is recognized as quite brilliant, in his own right. Kind of the unsung hero, if the expression may be used. I think the episode sortof hinted to that, when initially, Cain wants to take Gamorray, and Adama wisely states no, that the Cylons could strike at anytime, and is proven right. But maybe, thru background/history of prior battles mentioned perhaps in revised dialogue it could be further illustrated? Anyway, thanks for listening

[Merlin]

I would have changed the opening ... I would have had the Galactica come across the wreckage of a destroyed Base Ship ... there would be mass confusion ... on trying to figure out what destroyed the Base Ship .. they would all be on red alert .. Viper patrols sent out .. And then just have it pick up from where it originally started ... The Idea is and they find this out later .. that the base ship was just another victim of Commander Cain and the Pegasus !

[Senmut]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

I admittedly thought more in terms of Cain versus military figures who came through Trek, and will grant the richness of exploring further the likes of a Khan. It's when I think of the likes of a Commodore Wesley, Commodore Stocker, and even their best one, a Commodore Decker, I still find Cain the more interesting character.

As a story, I do think "Living Legend" is a richer character study in the complexities of competing miiltary philosophies than anything Trek offered us in its three years.

I think that Decker and Cain have alot in common. Decker loses it all, and goes off the deep end. Had Cain been stranded aboard a wrecked Pegasus, with a crew he tried to save having been wiped out by the Cylons, he might well have mentally disintegrated as much as Decker did. Like Decker, he cannot accept having been defeated by his enemy, and cares not a bit that his revenge could cost more ships and lives.

[Jubal]

Loving the whole Cain and Decker comparisons. Might have to get back to that in a moment.

Here lately I have been ordering my colonial warrior outfit, so naturally a HUGE fan of the Pegasus. If I were in that situation and eventually given the option to help get civiliians to safety or fight, I think I would have liked to fight it out.

But I had a fun thought of a alternate switch to this episode:

In the beginning of the episode, what if Athena had managed in those opening salvos when the vipers from the Galactica and Pegasus run across each other that Apollo is shot down.

They exchange licks, and the dander of both the Galactica and Pegasus turns out to be a civil war. Adama is unhinged at the loss of his son, and Cain refuses to admit wrong or stand down. And so the two go to war, right there in the middle of space. Last of their race, two great battlestars duking it out.

In the end, man, not the Cylons, is the end what is left of their race.