A Thought for TOS Diehards...

nextceo · January 22nd, 2005, 08:58 PM

Hopefully the way I phrase this will come off the right way, although I'm sure it will be misinterpreted by someone, somehow!

Anyway, what I wanted to say is that I would like the TOS diehards, those who are TNS haters to just consider something for a minute. Just remember when you make disparaging criticisms about TNS there is now a loyal fandom that feels a bit of a personal attack. While we shouldn't we still do, as you feel about those who criticize TOS. While I certainly can't compare my feeling for TNS to your feelings for TOS, as many of you have spent 20 plus yahrens working for BSG to be brought back only to find it has been brought back in a way you disapprove of, just remember many of us are beginning to have similar feelings towards TNS that you do towards TOS.

Look I love TOS, I'm an original TOS fan and continuation supporter. Heck I would love to see a continuation movie, I do also love watching TNS. It is my FAVORITE sci-fi show. So when someone talks negatively about it, I get irked. I understand everyone has there opinions, but it still irks me, just as negative things pointed at TOS irk you. Look you are entitled to your opinions, just think about how you would feel if someone said the same thing about TOS as you are about to say about TNS.

There are a lot of new BG fans who are just now beginning to even experience TOS as their first introduction to BSG was via TNS. The way you handle your criticisms of the show they know and love, is the light in which they will view TOS. Maybe you don't care, so be it. I just wanted to share with you how I feel about the situation. Its difficult I know, and I don't pretend to put myself in the shoes of hard core diehards who feel betrayed. I just want you to think about where we are coming from as fans of the new show.

"So say we all...."

"Some say life here, began out there..."

Senmut · January 22nd, 2005, 09:10 PM

Perhaps, if some of TNS enthusiasts had not gone to the stretch of heaping nasty epithets on those of us who accept no substitutes, such acrimony might have died aborning. But, sadly, many a sword has two edges.

Darth Marley · January 22nd, 2005, 09:12 PM

Ah, but does the bad actions of others ever justify our own actions?

Is it a "do unto others as they have done to you" world we now live in?

Eric Paddon · January 22nd, 2005, 09:19 PM

"Just remember when you make disparaging criticisms about TNS there is now a loyal fandom that feels a bit of a personal attack."

In the absence of any comment made about an indvidual who happens to like TNS, I do not see how any negative comments about TNS can be seen as "personal attack."

Maybe this analogy can best explain things. We TNS fans are like the Cleveland Browns fans in 1995 who loyally supported their team through some tough times over many years waiting for the hope of one day seeing their support rewarded in a Super Bowl. Universal is like Art Modell, the Cleveland owner, in this case the one with the money and the ability to do things that can help make our hope come true some day.

Art Modell then one day betrayed his loyal fanbase and moved his team to Baltimore without warning, just in the same way that Universal and Sci-Fi abruptly pulled the rug out from under us and "reinvented" Galactica into something none of us ever thought we'd see, and in the process to do this derailed what was looking like a promising opportunity to see a real continuation in the DeSanto project.

Cleveland fans naturally got upset and still are to this day.

TNS fans then are like the Baltimore Ravens fans who are enjoying something and being rewarded as the Ravens did in 2000 by giving them a Super Bowl that Cleveland is still waiting for. But ultimately, the things that the Ravens fans are enjoying are the result of some very unfair things that happened to the Cleveland fans (just as the LA Dodger fans are enjoying their team as a result of unfair things that happened to the Brooklyn Dodger fans in an earlier era). And for TNS fans, what they enjoy now is the result of some unfair things that happened to TOS fans over a period of some 25 years starting with ABC's unfair cancellation of the show, the indiginity of Galactica 1980, repeated false hopes of a revival through the years, the 15 Yahren Convention debacle and the less than stellar Richard Hatch novels and now ending with this.

So is it any surprise that a Cleveland Browns fan and a Baltimore Ravens fan are the kind of people who are going to have some inevitable clashes at some point?

Now of course the analogy isn't perfect, I admit, but it still I think hits on many of the same themes. A loyal fanbase that suffered patiently for decades waiting to see their patience rewarded saw something happen that strikes so many as unfair and the ultimate indignity is to see something "reimagined" succeed in a context where I am sorry to say, the original series is being run down by many of the boosters of TNS in media critic circles, from Ron Moore, and by Universal in the DVD packaging. And now it looks like TNS fans, like the Baltimore Ravens fans and their Super Bowl, are seeing more good things happen for them, while the diehard TOS fan who waited so long has an even worse counterpart than the replacement Cleveland Browns team at this point.

I mention this analogy only to tell TNS fans that if they wish to see themselves a fully integrated part of a big Galactica tent of fandom, they have to be prepared to understand why this attitude exists in a sizable contingent of TOS fandom (I know it doesn't apply to all of them). But to me, I have already seen the precedent of how some BG fans like Hatch's books and some don't, some liked certain comic versions of Galactica and some didn't, and yes, there were even some people who believe it or not actually liked Galactica 1980. But in those instances there was a willingness to accept things when people posted their views on those areas of disagreement, and it only seems to me that the same rules we use for those components of a large Galactica universe of properties has to apply ultimately to TNS as well where there is going to be criticism of it from some quarters (and I am not talking about criticism that attacks personally those who are TNS fans. That's out of line in ALL situations) unless we take the ultimate position that TNS and TOS fanbases should be permanently segregated like Baltimore and Cleveland fans, which is not what I think any of us want.

My two cubits.

Senmut · January 22nd, 2005, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Marley

Ah, but does the bad actions of others ever justify our own actions?

Is it a "do unto others as they have done to you" world we now live in?

Well, I didn't heap scorn upon TNS bunch. I merely commented upon the fact, yet now I am doing unto others? You seem to have totally misunderstood my statements.

Eric Paddon · January 22nd, 2005, 09:25 PM

I will add one other thing, nextceo. This particular forum called "criticism" exists for a reason. It's so people who have legitimate objections and complaints about TNS, whether on general principle or something else, can have a place to express ourselves freely without intruding in areas more reserved for TNS fans. To me, as a TOS fan who does not like TNS, I would consider it very unfair if my ability to speak my mind on TNS were no longer available to me.

Gemini1999 · January 22nd, 2005, 09:26 PM

I'd like to say something in this thread before it goes much further....

Prior to the beginning of this year, Fleets did not have a "Criticisms" forum. The suggestion was made that the intent to keep Fleets a "happy place" that maybe those that had something to say, whether it was good or bad, that there wasn't a proper venue for it.

After some deliberation, it was decided to create a place for those that had critiques for the new or the old series and this is it. There is only one or two restrictions on it - that the critiques stay focused on the show(s), just not the individuals or whichever segment of fandom that doesn't agree whatever aspects of either shows being critiqued.

In short, if someone wants to criticize TOS in the Criticisms forum, they can - without reprisals. Lively discussion maybe, but no reprisals. The same goes for the miniseries or the new series - critique is fine, but don't cry about someone saying something that you don't like.

If anyone feels that they like either show to the point where it is undeserving of such criticism, then hanging out in this part of the forum is not for the thin skinned.

The one thing about television entertainment, is that the quality of such entertainment is subjective. Some will like what others don't and vice versa.

No opinions will be suppressed here as long as they are made in an intelligent and respective manner.

I hope that the message is getting through.....

Sincerley,

Gemini1999
Colonial Fleets Moderator

nextceo · January 22nd, 2005, 09:32 PM

Gemini... I read you over and out... I can't agree more, just felt the best place for my thought was here. Its not to impung anyone, I simply want us to think when we air our criticisms so we don't come off as personalizing it. Thats all and I'll shut up now... Well at least for a little while!

Thanks though for jumping in and reminding us all of the reasons for the criticisms forum (and the rules)!

Darrell Lawrence · January 22nd, 2005, 09:44 PM

Let's try it in reverse and see how it reads, shall we?
--------

I would like the TNS diehards, those who are TOS haters to just consider something for a minute. Just remember when you make disparaging criticisms about TOS there is now a loyal fandom that feels a bit of a personal attack. While we shouldn't we still do, as you feel about those who criticize TNS. While I certainly can't compare my feeling for TOS to your feelings for TNS, as many of you have spent 2 plus yahrens working for BSG to be re-imagined to find it has been brought back in a way you approve of, just remember many of us have similar feelings towards TOS that you do towards TNS.

Look I love TOS, I'm an original TOS fan and continuation supporter. Heck I would love to see a continuation movie. It is my FAVORITE sci-fi show. So when someone talks negatively about it, I get irked. I understand everyone has there opinions, but it still irks me, just as negative things pointed at TNS irk you. Look you are entitled to your opinions, just think about how you would feel if someone said the same thing about TNS as you are about to say about TOS.

There are a lot of new BG fans who are just now beginning to even experience TNS as their first introduction to BSG was via TOS. The way you handle your criticisms of the show they know and love, is the light in which they will view TNS. Maybe you don't care, so be it. I just wanted to share with you how I feel about the situation. Its difficult I know, and I don't pretend to put myself in the shoes of hard core diehards who feel betrayed. I just want you to think about where we are coming from as fans of the old show.

nextceo · January 22nd, 2005, 09:47 PM

I totally agree with you warrior....

Darrell Lawrence · January 22nd, 2005, 09:53 PM

Well... you'd have to, or else get yourself stuck in a corner, since that's the same message you posted, but from the other side of the fence

nextceo · January 22nd, 2005, 09:57 PM

Bwahahaha!!!!!

julix · January 24th, 2005, 10:30 AM

nextceo.
It is hard when a show you love get blasted especially when it is a personal attack.......I believe the mods take of it if it becomes personal. But the comparisons will be made because they called it BG and not something else like I wish they had. Some people take longer to deal with things and some people will never accept change that is the way of the world. Also I believe the anonimity of the internet causes some people to act and say things differently then they would in RL...but some would do it in RL too!..............LOL There are some people who do not want to give the new show a chance and I respect that because I respect everyone's right. Just as I respect you for loving TNS(and Martok

) I am in the mindset to give the new show a chance...others are not there yet and they may never be. Don't let negativity into the core of who you are. That is what I try to do with TOS...I have heard it all about the show I love, some days it is harder then others but in the end it is up to each of us....

bsg1fan1975 · January 26th, 2005, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrior

Let's try it in reverse and see how it reads, shall we?
--------

I would like the TNS diehards, those who are TOS haters to just consider something for a minute. Just remember when you make disparaging criticisms about TOS there is now a loyal fandom that feels a bit of a personal attack. While we shouldn't we still do, as you feel about those who criticize TNS. While I certainly can't compare my feeling for TOS to your feelings for TNS, as many of you have spent 2 plus yahrens working for BSG to be re-imagined to find it has been brought back in a way you approve of, just remember many of us have similar feelings towards TOS that you do towards TNS.

Look I love TOS, I'm an original TOS fan and continuation supporter. Heck I would love to see a continuation movie. It is my FAVORITE sci-fi show. So when someone talks negatively about it, I get irked. I understand everyone has there opinions, but it still irks me, just as negative things pointed at TNS irk you. Look you are entitled to your opinions, just think about how you would feel if someone said the same thing about TNS as you are about to say about TOS.

There are a lot of new BG fans who are just now beginning to even experience TNS as their first introduction to BSG was via TOS. The way you handle your criticisms of the show they know and love, is the light in which they will view TNS. Maybe you don't care, so be it. I just wanted to share with you how I feel about the situation. Its difficult I know, and I don't pretend to put myself in the shoes of hard core diehards who feel betrayed. I just want you to think about where we are coming from as fans of the old show.

Thank you big brother! You put everything on the table for an opposing viewpoint!

January 26th, 2005, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsg1fan1975

Thank you big brother! You put everything on the table for an opposing viewpoint!

Only one problem: Look at the TOS episode reviews versus the TNS episode reviews. On the TOS reviews there are no TNS fans writing the desparaging reviews. On the TNS episode reviews a large amount of the reviews are the reviews written by people who hate TNS but watch it just to slam it. Look at the threads objectively.

Most TNS fans are also TOS fans. Although it does happen it is rare to find a TNS fan desparing TOS today. When the exchanges do happen they are usually a response to a TOS only fan replying on a TNS subject. Example: GINO sucks, reply: I like it better than TOS (TOS only fan: They are desparing TOS)

The response may be an opposing viewpoint but it is not an objective viewpoint. I think if you look at the TOS section you will find either TOS only fans or dual fans like Martok, myself, Rowan, etc. posting. The reverse of that can't be said on TNS threads.

Good recent example: A TNS thread: How should the series end: One reply: As soon as possible. That may be funny but it says volumes. No one would today post on the Dreams forum on a question about how should TOS end with such a response. If you can't see that, you can't see what's really going on.

Once upon a time so called minifans may have flamed this issue but ever since I have been here, over a year it definitely is fanned primarily by one side. As a fan of both versions it makes me sad.

Does anyone here hate Stargate, Andromeder, or Enterprise then watch the episodes just so you can run it down? Of course not.

Archangel · January 26th, 2005, 11:51 AM

I'm with Antelope on this one (surprise!!!!). In the last few months, attacks by TNS fans have lessened to a considerable degree. Attacks by the TOS fans, while they have lessened since the downloadability (?), they still happen with a greater frequency than the other way around.

I shudder to think what would be said here if a TNS-only fan posted that he watched TOS just to bash it.

Dawg · January 26th, 2005, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antelope526

Only one problem: Look at the TOS episode reviews versus the TNS episode reviews. On the TOS reviews there are no TNS fans writing the desparaging reviews. On the TNS episode reviews a large amount of the reviews are the reviews written by people who hate TNS but watch it just to slam it. Look at the threads objectively.

Most TNS fans are also TOS fans. Although it does happen it is rare to find a TNS fan desparing TOS today. When the exchanges do happen they are usually a response to a TOS only fan replying on a TNS subject. Example: GINO sucks, reply: I like it better than TOS (TOS only fan: They are desparing TOS)

Incorrect, unfortunately. If you look at most reviews where TOS is mentioned, regardless of if it's in a magazine or on the internet, TOS in nearly always spoken of dismissively - it's cheesy, it's a one-hit wonder, lousy writing & character development, etc. The glowing pro-TNS reviews are invariably at the expense of TOS.

Granted, you don't see it as much here, since the people who come here tend treat the feelings of others with respect, for the most part. But you do see it here occassionally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by antelope526

The response may be an opposing viewpoint but it is not an objective viewpoint. I think if you look at the TOS section you will find either TOS only fans or dual fans like Martok, myself, Rowan, etc. posting. The reverse of that can't be said on TNS threads.

Good recent example: A TNS thread: How should the series end: One reply: As soon as possible. That may be funny but it says volumes. No one would today post on the Dreams forum on a question about how should TOS end with such a response. If you can't see that, you can't see what's really going on.

Once upon a time so called minifans may have flamed this issue but ever since I have been here, over a year it definitely is fanned primarily by one side. As a fan of both versions it makes me sad.

Does anyone here hate Stargate, Andromeder, or Enterprise then watch the episodes just so you can run it down? Of course not.

I think you're perpetuating a common misconception, Antelope. There are many facets at work here.

Many feel that the mere existence of TNS has jeopardized any future chance of a continuation of the original, and that the longer TNS airs the less of a chance there is. I don't know how accurate that feeling is, given the air-headedness that permeates the Hollywood heirarchy (and Universal in particular). Therefore, "as soon as possible" is not an unreasonable individual answer to that particular question, if you actually want to look at it objectively.

But the majority of the Traditionalists that are watching nuBSG are watching in the hope that they see something they can identify with, simply because they are science fiction fans first. How many times have you seen one of us say "if only it was called something else"? I know I've said it. I've said that the references to 'Battlestar Galactica' actually detract from my enjoyment of nuBSG. Antelope, we want to find something to like here.

I believe you are mistaken as to the validity of Warrior's response. Look at it and compare it to the post it was replying to. It puts the shoe on the other foot. What if the roles were reversed? How would you, nuBSG fan, feel? It levels the playing field. Warrior is providing a valuable service, and I thank him for it.

Perhaps if a few more eyes were opened and people were less dismissive of what came before, many of the conflicts we've seen would have been avoided. Let's hope that can happen still.

I am
Dawg

Darrell Lawrence · January 26th, 2005, 12:08 PM

The vast majority of osBG ep reviews were written long before nuBG became a series.

On top of that, the osBG bashing takes place outside the review forums.

I am not going to say nuBG bashing doesn't happen. It does.

But it's not the fans that are being bashed... being told they're out of line, being told they're behind the times, being told they're out of touch because their show was nothing but cheese, etc etc.

bsg1fan1975 · January 26th, 2005, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrior

The vast majority of osBG ep reviews were written long before nuBG became a series.

On top of that, the osBG bashing takes place outside the review forums.

I am not going to say nuBG bashing doesn't happen. It does.

But it's not the fans that are being bashed... being told they're out of line, being told they're behind the times, being told they're out of touch because their show was nothing but cheese, etc etc.

Again big brother you are correct in your statements!

Archangel · January 26th, 2005, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawg

Incorrect, unfortunately. If you look at most reviews where TOS is mentioned, regardless of if it's in a magazine or on the internet, TOS in nearly always spoken of dismissively - it's cheesy, it's a one-hit wonder, lousy writing & character development, etc. The glowing pro-TNS reviews are invariably at the expense of TOS.

Not sure I agree with this. How many of these "reviews" are made by reviewers who are not sci-fi fans, but rather people who may have flicked their way past BSG in the 1970's to watch Dukes Of Hazzard. A lot of them are probably remembering partial scenes of a show that they never really watched.

Where science fiction is concerned, mainstream reviewers can't really be trusted because most of them don't know anything about this genre of television.

I prefer to trust the opinions of people like those here, at least we have a good idea of what we're talking about.

Darth Marley · January 26th, 2005, 12:18 PM

What about a person that is dismissive about the original, but likes the new show?

There must be a few of them.

Are they to be forcibly educated to correct this defect in their thinking? Or browbeaten to submit to the tastes of the elect?

Darrell Lawrence · January 26th, 2005, 12:19 PM

You missed his point, Arch... th reviews he mentions *are* the ones out there. THOSE are the ones *everyone* is reading, not just forums BG fans.

Darrell Lawrence · January 26th, 2005, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Marley

What about a person that is dismissive about the original, but likes the new show?

There must be a few of them.

Are they to be forcibly educated to correct this defect in their thinking? Or browbeaten to submit to the tastes of the elect?

What about a person that is dismissive about the new, but likes the old show?

There must be a few of them.

Are they to be forcibly educated to correct this defect in their thinking? Or browbeaten to submit to the tastes of the elect?

Archangel · January 26th, 2005, 12:23 PM

I got the point, Warrior

Mine was that the reviewers themselves have to be viewed with something of a suspicious eye.

Darrell Lawrence · January 26th, 2005, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archangel

I got the point, Warrior

Mine was that the reviewers themselves have to be viewed with something of a suspicious eye.

Oh so very true

Darth Marley · January 26th, 2005, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrior

What about a person that is dismissive about the new, but likes the old show?

There must be a few of them.

Are they to be forcibly educated to correct this defect in their thinking? Or browbeaten to submit to the tastes of the elect?

This is silly.

You can flip any statment and suggest that the opposite view is valid.
If this is you main theme, then what the hell are YOU complaining about.
Say it once, then flip it around and say the opposite.

Or is there something bulletproof about YOUR views that makes their opposite absurd?

I get the notion that you would prefer CF to be a purist TOS only site.
Frankly, that would not annoy me. Folks like me, and a few others that I wouldn't presume to speak for can discuss the new series elsewhere.
And the world can look in and see which communities they want to be a part of.

Darrell Lawrence · January 26th, 2005, 12:48 PM

Every post I have reversed is a post trying to point blame in one direction.

That's my complaint.

People coming here and trying to validate their POV without looking at it from the other perspective.

By the time people do that, THEN everyone will be able to get along.

Note that I have *not* bashed one person who's post I reversed.

Including, suprisingly, you.

Darth Marley · January 26th, 2005, 12:52 PM

Why would that be surprisingly? Have you a grudge?

What I am asking is, what is it you want? You seem to be posting a lot and I am just not sure what it is about. Unless you just wish things were different than they are, but don't want to come out with what the problem is.

Darrell Lawrence · January 26th, 2005, 12:56 PM

...and I answered that in the post above yours.

Darth Marley · January 26th, 2005, 01:02 PM

Well maybe I am being extra dense today.

Is your complaint an issue with new, random geeks coming here and saying things that offend you?

Maybe they have looked at "both sides now" and just hold a different view.

From where I stand, fans of the new show are not "taking shots" at the old, except in the sense there is a new show, and it is new. I have geeks in my family that hold the same views of many "media critics."

Is it still just too "forced" to expect peace in the valley? Should CF go the same route as BSGC?