My defense of TOS fans...

[martok2112]

Hello, all,

I wanted to post this copy of something I left at Ragnar Anchorage. One of the members questioned why it is that TOS Traditionalists cling so tightly to their desire to see an absolute faithful remake/continuation of the classic show, when they have a perfectly good new show that does what the original series should have (focus on the plight of the fleet, and humanity in general).

Xenu provided a long response, and made several good points...but with all due respect to Xenu, (someone whom I consider a friend) I think he missed some of the more key elements.

I left this reply to help paint the other side of the fence, in defense of my TOS brethren and sistren (still needs to see if that is a legit word....and if not...demands that it be so ) .

I hope I have covered this area adequately. I will post it in my next reply, since it is rather lengthy.

To be continued:
Martok2112

[martok2112]

Although I am a fan of both TOS and TNS Galactica, I feel I must speak on defense of the TOS fans.

Chaceldony, hopefully I can help paint another perspective for you here. (Note: Anywhere that I use allcaps for a word or phrase is not intended to come across as flaming...simply emphasis.)

Xenu, ya kinda sorta hit it on the head with your psychoanalysis in that many TOS Traditionalists (I hate calling them "purists" because that suggests that they want NO changes whatsoever) hang on to their childhood memories about the Classic Galactica.

However, Classic Galactica fans are being painted with too broad a brush, and too revulsing a color, by the media, and those who have absolutely NO UNDERSTANDING WHATSOEVER about what it was that made Battlestar Galactica so great for them.


Everyone who either opposes a continuation, or simply doesn't see one happening, tends to think that hardcore TOS Traditionalists absolutely HAVE to have the original cast in order to pull off a continuation, or even a more faithful retelling. Some of these people who use this rather unwieldy and unflattering paintbrush also seem to think that these TOS fans want to see the 70's hairstyles, men in robot suits, and a chimp in a daggit suit.

In many cases, nothing could be FURTHER from the truth.

Granted, the Colonial Fan Force ad that was put out in Variety and Cinescape does specifically mention that they would love to see the original cast back on the screen (either big or small) where they belong.

However, that does NOT mean that they want to see the 70's hairstyles and disco motifs, the men in clunky robot suits, and a chimp in a daggit suit.

These fans realize the need for, and WANT certain elements of Classic Galactica to be updated to contemporary storytelling.

But they also associate Battlestar Galactica with family fare....something they would be happy to sit down with their children and watch...and know that their kids are not going to be scarred for life by controversial subject matter.

They want to see the darker premise of humanity's holocaust and exodus be further exploited. They feel it did not have to be SO dark as the new show had made it.
(Personally, I love the much darker feel....but many of these fans want their classic "white hat/black hat" clear cut heroes and villains....not characters who are overly flawed to the point of dysfunction, and villains who are more questionable (and perhaps sympathetic?) than despicable.

There are just core elements of TOS that still appeal to the traditionalists of today.....family, friendship, hope, triumph in the face of overwhelming odds, and a clear definition of who is the good guy/bad guy, and even a fairly positive view of pseudo-Judeo-Christian faith (Mormons in space)...and it is something that they feel the new Battlestar Galactica is just totally missing the mark on, in all respects.

But, around those core elements, a more mature story can be told, without entirely compromising those cores.


Many TOS traditionalists would be overly joyed to see a more faithful retelling of the Classic Battlestar Galactica, even if it had a completely new cast. They just want to see something that takes them a little closer to their childhood memories in terms of story, and core values.

Now, I am sure you've noticed that I have used the term "TOS Traditionalist" here, as opposed to "TOS Purist". A friend and I kinda worked out the difference between the two.

TOS Traditionalist= Someone who loved the core values of the Classic Battlestar Galactica series: Family, friendship, clear cut good and evil, and a definitive sense of otherworldliness, yet understands that the storytelling can be updated and matured without compromising those core values. In fact, you will find many of these kinds of fans who could do without Muffit...just to name one element that appealed to kids in the classic show. These traditionalists WANT to see the darker elements of the holocaust/exodus premise brought to the foreground, but not overwhelmingly so. They feel that the current version of Battlestar Galactica simply does NOT do proper respect to the original, and often leaves them depressed instead of uplifted as with the traditional heroic sagas.

TOS Purist= By definition, a purist is someone who wants NO CHANGES WHATSOEVER to the original formula. So, to use that definition, a TOS Purist wants NO CHANGES WHATSOEVER to the motifs, stories, appearances and cores of Classic Battlestar Galactica.

However, these "purists" are extremely rare. Pretty much everyone else who is a staunch, dyed in the wool supporter of TOS is better defined as a TOS Traditionalist.


I will grant you that (barring a sudden change of heart in the American societal consciousness that embraces larger than life heroes like it did in the past) a Classic Galactica based movie would probably not do well at the box office. In fact, I would be surprised if it lasted two weeks. Even with the countless numbers of TOS fans who would go out to see such a movie repeatedly, given todays theatre prices, they could not keep it up for a prolonged period of time.

But for many of these fans....all they want is to see their heroes (whether played by the original actors, or simply more faithfully portrayed by new actors) and the original Big G and those nifty Vipers and Cylon Raiders, and the robotic Cylons on the big screen just one more time. Their dreams that have been dashed for 26 years will have been realized. Just one last time. Something to give closure to the story that had barely had a chance to begin just over 26 years ago.

Many of these fans are also NOT CONCERNED with how much starpower these actors have. These are the people who personified their heroes. Granted, several of the older actors (Lorne Greene, Lloyd Bridges, John Colicos) have long since passed, but the continuation stories can be made to suit those sad losses.

And although I am a fan of the new show....I am also one of their brethren, who shares the same desire.

One of the reasons why I would love to see my Dark Exodus fanfic take off to be something more than just fanfic. I call it, my contribution to all our hopes.


Cha, I hope I have helped paint the other side of the picture for you, and given you an understanding of the mindset of the TOS Traditionalist.

Respectfully,
Martok2112

LONG LIVE BOTH BATTLESTARS GALACTICA!!!

LONG LIVE ALL GALACTICA FANS!!!

[bsg1fan1975]

Thank you Martok!

[gmd3d]

well said martok.......

[repcisg]

Nicely said Martok!

[Archangel]

There are eloquent thoughts in that bumpy head.

[Stevew]

Nice Martok. I guess I am a TOS Traditionalist, I just wanted a continuation in the mold of what Richard or Larson wanted. Why should we even need to be defended anyway? There was an opertunity to kill 2 stones with one bird and RDM missed by a mile in my view.

Originally Posted by martok2112

Everyone who either opposes a continuation, or simply doesn't see one happening, tends to think that hardcore TOS Traditionalists absolutely HAVE to have the original cast in order to pull off a continuation, or even a more faithful retelling.

My only contention with Martoks post is that during my time in fandom I have found that the VAST MAJORITY of TOS traditionalist absolutely DO WANT a Continuation done with as much of the original cast as humanly possible. Few if any traditonalist have any desire to watch a movie that is about most of the years between the end of TOS and today. There is about ZERO support for a continuation of the series from the point TOS ended from so called traditionalist.

The reason for this seems pretty clear. Most traditionalist do not want to see any actors other than the original actors play the characters from TOS. It therefor is impossible to continue the story where TOS ends as I for one wish it would.

When I bring up the fact that I would like to see a Continuation that starts where TOS left off I have found no one who supports the idea because that means someone else has to play the roles. As a result of my discussions in this area I question if the whole Continuation episode in the end has anything to do with the plot of TOS. I think the tradionalist fans have bonded to Richard Hatch as Apollo, Dirk Benedict as Starbuck and so on. The actors and characters are inseparably at this point. As such no version of Battlestar Galactica will suffice until the show brings closure not to Apollo, Starbuck, and all but to Richard Hatch as Apollo, Dirk Benedict as Starbuck and so on. No one seems concerned about Adama and Baltar in a Continuation and that in my mind is because Lorne Greene and John Colicos are dead. As far as the traditionalist is concerned that means Adama and Baltar are dead.

I love TOS but think the womanizing hot shot pilot is an archetype played well by many people in television and movie history not just Dirk Benedict. I think for the traditionalist however Dirk Benedict is Starbuck and Starbuck is Galactica. With this in mind no remake or Continuation would ever be acceptable no matter how much or how little it reflected the TOS storyline unless at least some of the original cast was in the story playing their original characters.

I support a TOS Continuation from the point TOS ended but I stand alone with no hope for no one stands with me.

[peter noble]

With respect to Martok, I appreciate the sentiments but I don't think we need anyone to defend us.

And Antelope, in some respectss you may be right, but the only person I couldn't recast in a continuation is Dirk Benedict as Starbuck.

I could see someone else playing the part in a faithful remake (Lord knows who) but as long as he lives (a long, long time I hope) Dirk will always be Starbuck.

Best,

Peter

[Darrell Lawrence]

antelope, learn the difference between "want" and "require", please.

We "want" the original cast intact as much as possible, yes.

But it is *NOT* "required" to have them, which is the picture you are trying to paint.

[Eric Paddon]

Antelope, I have in point of fact, made the argument that Baltar is the one role that I would accept recasting in, especially if played by an actor like Anthony Zerbe who I think would fit the mold as established by John Colicos perfectly (especially when I recall Zerbe in genre works like "The Omega Man"). An exception can be made for him because in a story set a generation later, there is still I think something that can be done to develop his character further.

But for the rest of the characters, I want to see them as they are a generation later as a supporting group to a new generation of performers and characters, and in which the details we want to know about what happened to them can be dealt with in a way that will satisfy TOS fans and at the same time not be overdone in a way that would be confusing to a new audience. For instance if you have a character who is established as Apollo and Sheba's son or daughter, then right off the bat TOS fan knows the resolution of what we've been wondering ever since that one kiss in "Hand Of God" and it need not be explained too much further. Likewise, if a returning Dirk Benedict as Starbuck says as a throwaway line at one point, "It's like my old man, who was quite a con man in his day, used to say....." then TOS fan knows that Starbuck learned the truth about Chameleon and we can move on to something new and fresh within this next generation framework.

To me, going for this approach is the best compromise I as a TOS fan can make in the sense of asking that TOS fans be given some closure to certain plot points of TOS but to not dwell on them too much at the risk of leaving too many potential new fans baffled.

I do not want to see a continuation done in the context of an alternate media format such as animation, because to me that is not any different than a comic book which has already been done three times and has no special distinction for me. Radio would be better than animation for me personally, but filmed live action is what I have to see to feel that final closure is anywhere near for TOS fan who has waited at times with the patience of Job it would seem.

[julix]

Thanks Martok....very nicely put....you do have a way with words and I do know that you are simply trying to promote understanding. Which I do admire. We have a lot of new members here at fleets and the questions around this do keep comming up. Thanks for getting at the heart of the matter. I think my ideal would be to have as many of the orignial actors as possible in a continuation...i don't know that is the only thing I would accept now that we has tns (which falls very short for me) I am more open to other ideas now...IF it remains true to the roots of BG. And has the same ideals etc...It is hard to say. Look at GL and Star Wars it is his story and creation and the fans do not like some of the thingss he is doing, but at least it is his story and he created it and I think he has the right to do what he wants with it. You definatly can't make everyone happy. I am trying to give tns a chance, and that is mostly because of you Martok and the talks we have had. I am trying

Originally Posted by Warrior

antelope, learn the difference between "want" and "require", please.

We "want" the original cast intact as much as possible, yes.

But it is *NOT* "required" to have them, which is the picture you are trying to paint.

My point is that I WANT a Continuation. There is a large percentage of the fan base that REQUIRE it to be with the original cast set 25 years in the future. I have raised this issue a few times on a few boards. As stated earlier there are very few people in the fan base that want a Continuation that starts one day after Hand of God with new actors in the old roles. This is not the first time I brought this up. I have once referred to this conumdrum as "The Sacred Timeline". In ten more years most of the traditionalist will want a Continuation set 35 years after hand of God. It's because the actors and characters have become one and the same in the mind of many fans.

There is nothing wrong with this. It is what people prefer but I am sure this would be an issue when a writer or producer decides to make or not make a TOS based continuation.

[julix]

here is a post I made on another thread that spoke to the ideals I think TOS had...it was in response to EErazor post about the 70's vibe.....



There are people here who love the new show and there are quite a few of us TOS fans trying to give the new show a chance...I am one of those. I see you think of yourself as an idealist but i would say it is me who is the idealist because you stated

The old series had a lot of the 70s vibe in it. "Everthing is honkey dory, everyone loves one another" and "friendship" and ideals where a central point to the series, especially when it came to the representation of its characters. Truth of the matter is a lot of us today do not want to see that anymore because we know, from events in the news and other time passers that this is truly not the case. The new BSG explores this in a rather dramatic "in your face" way which appeals to a lot of new fans but leaves the old fans standing dry.


But see I still try to believe in that..... I do want to hope in the end things will be ok, I do have faith.....I do want no matter how ideal it is for everyone to love each other..............if I lost this hope there would be no chance for it to happen.......As far as frienships I do have wonderful ones! From the friends I have that I made over twenty five years ago that I can still count on today to the lovely people I consider friends here that I have known almost one year now....


So, I do believe you can consider me idealistic but still hopeful and I won't loose hope and be jaded...I made a promise to myself at 20 when I saw how the 40 some year old were that i would never allow myself to be like they were jaded and full of negativity...life can bring a lot of challenges I have had my share but i still remain hopeful and love tos for the ideal it holds for me. i don't need realism...I live it everyday!



so just wanted to add that to my feelings about TOS for me

[Sci-Fi]

Originally Posted by peter noble

I could see someone else playing the part in a faithful remake (Lord knows who) but as long as he lives (a long, long time I hope) Dirk will always be Starbuck.

Best,

Peter

My favorite male Starbucks, besides DB:

Leo Genn, Moby Dick (1956)
Burt Lancaster, The Rainmaker (1956) - a charismatic con man in love with his own con...sound familiar? Burt is my ultimate Starbuck, with no disrespect to any other actors.

[Gemini1999]

Originally Posted by Sci-Fi

Burt Lancaster, The Rainmaker (1956) - a charismatic con man in love with his own con...sound familiar? Burt is my ultimate Starbuck, with no disrespect to any other actors.

"The Rainmaker".....! Thank you! For some silly reason, I kept thinking of "Oklahoma!".

I did a search online once and I also found a reference to a stage play that was called "95 Degrees in the Shade" that also had a character named Starbuck. Again, it was some version of a con artist.

The name and that image have been around a long time....

Best,
Bryan

[Darrell Lawrence]

If push came to shove in a continuation recasting, I think Carey Elwes would make a good Starbuck. He's got a similar charm about him.

[kingfish]

If I was making the movie my dream team would be:


Adama- Sir Ian.

Baltar- Gene Hackman.

Cain- William Shatner.

[martok2112]

Thanks for your responses, everyone.

For the record, I can agree that TOS fans don't need defending. I guess another reason why people who are trying to promote understanding between the fanbases are not needed according to some other posters.

It was something I chose to do, because I don't like the way TOS fans have been painted by the media, and by the ignorance of other people.

Respectfully,
Martok2112

[Dawg]

I, for one, appreciate the effort. Thank you, Martok.

In fact, it (along with some other input) has inspired me to do a bit of educational writing - hopefully I will complete it this evening or tomorrow and I will share it with everyone.

I am
Dawg

[julix]

Originally Posted by Dawg

I, for one, appreciate the effort. Thank you, Martok.

In fact, it (along with some other input) has inspired me to do a bit of educational writing - hopefully I will complete it this evening or tomorrow and I will share it with everyone.

I am
Dawg

Sounds good mr. Dawg

[martok2112]

Looking forward to it.

[Darrell Lawrence]

Steve, I view the post as nothing diferent than any other osBG fan trying to explain the feelings for osBG.

In other words, nice job

[kingfish]

Martok your the man or should I say Klingon.

[Muffit]

Hi Martok!!! Wow, that's quite a thread, I'll have to set aside some time for my (snail's) eyes to read it!! Oh, btw, for the record, the correct expression is, "Brethren and cistern"

Hey, works for me!!

Sci-Fi -- you sre SO right -- Rainmaker is outstanding, truly outstanding. My second fav of Mr. Lancaster's after Crimson Pirate!! "Say you're pretty!" "I'm plain, plain!!"
That part is one of the most endearing clips from any film

Ah, the days when men were men, and women -- usually fainted...

[amberstar]

Originally Posted by martok2112

Thanks for your responses, everyone.

For the record, I can agree that TOS fans don't need defending. I guess another reason why people who are trying to promote understanding between the fanbases are not needed according to some other posters.

It was something I chose to do, because I don't like the way TOS fans have been painted by the media, and by the ignorance of other people.

Respectfully,
Martok2112

Thank you Martok

[amberstar]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

Antelope, I have in point of fact, made the argument that Baltar is the one role that I would accept recasting in, especially if played by an actor like Anthony Zerbe who I think would fit the mold as established by John Colicos perfectly (especially when I recall Zerbe in genre works like "The Omega Man"). An exception can be made for him because in a story set a generation later, there is still I think something that can be done to develop his character further.

But for the rest of the characters, I want to see them as they are a generation later as a supporting group to a new generation of performers and characters, and in which the details we want to know about what happened to them can be dealt with in a way that will satisfy TOS fans and at the same time not be overdone in a way that would be confusing to a new audience. For instance if you have a character who is established as Apollo and Sheba's son or daughter, then right off the bat TOS fan knows the resolution of what we've been wondering ever since that one kiss in "Hand Of God" and it need not be explained too much further. Likewise, if a returning Dirk Benedict as Starbuck says as a throwaway line at one point, "It's like my old man, who was quite a con man in his day, used to say....." then TOS fan knows that Starbuck learned the truth about Chameleon and we can move on to something new and fresh within this next generation framework.

To me, going for this approach is the best compromise I as a TOS fan can make in the sense of asking that TOS fans be given some closure to certain plot points of TOS but to not dwell on them too much at the risk of leaving too many potential new fans baffled.

I do not want to see a continuation done in the context of an alternate media format such as animation, because to me that is not any different than a comic book which has already been done three times and has no special distinction for me. Radio would be better than animation for me personally, but filmed live action is what I have to see to feel that final closure is anywhere near for TOS fan who has waited at times with the patience of Job it would seem.

Exactly what I was thinking, well said Eric

[martok2112]

Thanks again everyone.

Keep the faith.

All my respect,
Martok2112

[jewels]

Originally Posted by Muffit

Ah, the days when men were men, and women -- usually fainted...

Hear! Hear!

Glad to know someone else around here likes when men could flirt.

Originally Posted by jewels

Hear! Hear!

Glad to know someone else around here likes when men could flirt.

They still can...if given the chance