Starbuck "killed" Zak

It's funny how sometimes you need to read someone elses writing to see the obvious. On cylon.org in the Battlestar Galactica article section entitiled "Battlestar Galactica Rant", a good article comparing doing a continuation versus the mini I came across the issue of Starbuck's guilt for Zak's death.

Even though I remember from TOS that Zak pulled the patrol at the armistice site because Starbuck played sick it didn't dawn on me that there was a plot line in both Saga of A Star World and the mini that Starbuck felt guilty about having caused the death of Zak in both versions. I guess although it was there in TOS it was glossed over pretty rapidly and never mentioned in a future episode. In the mini it is a key point of the relationship between Starbuck, Apollo, and Adama.

At least in my mind mind I find this very interesting and a very good character development point in the Moore version that escaped me when I watched TOS.

[Dawg]

Only if you're fond of emotionally crippled characters, antelope.

In TOS, Zac and Starbuck conspired to allow Zac a shot at that patrol - a perfectly safe situation, given the armistace, a patrol in name only. Zac was fresh out of the Academy, eager as hell. Remember the exchange between Apollo and Starbuck, right after Apollo sent Zac off to get ready?

Of course, Starbuck felt guilty, and it was a recurring theme. Apollo felt guiltier for having to leave Zac to the tender mercies of the Cylons.

In the mini, lovestruck Stardoe passed her boyfriend when she should have grounded him, he got killed as a result, then she let Lee and Bill fight (for how long?) over it. Only when it looked like they were all going to die did she let him in on her little secret.

Gag me with a spoon.

(Sorry - I've been waiting to use that line for years.)

There really isn't much comparison between the two. Remember, the RDM BSG is really "In Harms Way". Right?

I am
Dawg

I never noticed Starbuck was feeling guility about the Zak situation in TOS. I am sure as any person in his situation he was. I just never saw it in the script.

When Zak was killed in TOS just short of the fleet and Adama tells the President, "That was my son." and then Apollo appears and says something to the effect that he needs to go back out and help Zak not knowing it is too late, those two scenes are probably the most emotionally gripping in Galactica anywhere.

Something good or interesting in the mini does not mean it detracts from TOS.

If you ever watch the movie Gallipoli with Mel Gibson you can see a great example of the same theme of a friend letting someone do something either they are not qualified to do or something someone else is more qualified to do resulting in the death of someone. In the case of Gallipoli the entire Australian unit is killed including the person who did the favor.

Some plot points in the mini are good in their own right.

We don't know everything that brought Commander Adama and Lee to blows in the mini and if the death of Zak was a final straw or the one and only event. We also don't know if Starbuck had told Lee or anyone what she did earlier if it would have ended her military career. I don't think that is an issue in her mind anymore. This story has some deep issues if you are willing to look at them. Is Starbucks comabative nature a result of Zak's death? She may not feel worthy of being a warrior and is unconsciously trying to destroy her career. Telling Lee may have lifted a burden off her soul that allows her character to calm down. Only the series will give us the answers.

True story:

During World War II my grandfather (on my father's side) served in the Navy on an LST (a troop and equipment amphibious landing ship). He participated in the D-Day Invasion taking British troops ashore on Sword beach.

When his LST was at port in England one evening my Grandfather had duty on the deck of the ship. His relief couldn't sleep well so he relieved my grandfather early. As my Grandfather went down below a V-1 missile fell from the sky and struck his ship in port. His ship sunk in port. Seven men were killed including the man who relieved my Grandfather early.

Sometimes you think you are doing people a favor and the law of unintended consequences takes a horrible twist.

I am eternally greatful to that individual for his service to our country. His selfless act unintentional saved my grandfather and cost him his life.

[Rowan]

Oh Dawg I love it, Stardoe! that's too funny!
antelope526 I agree with you about the potential for very good charachter development with those 3.
and yes Dawg you make a very good point. I was not impressed that she had created this terible rift between father and son by not telling Lee sooner. what irony and betrayal all this time Lee has been angry with the wrong person and friends with the person responsible. how do you get past that?!

[thomas7g]

I don't think Zac weighed as much on Starbucks soul in the original series cause Starbuck just lived through the cylon assault on the fleet. Presumably he saw quite a few battlestars and alot of people die on a rather large scale. So he saw alot of death. And I don't think he was focusing on Zac so much as losing the fleet.

Zac's death was a key ingredient as to why Apollo was such a tragically noble character. He was constantly hit by loss. First he has to chose between his brother and the fleet, then he finds his mom died. Then he loses Serina. But he still is an incredibly good person. I think that is what makes Apollo such an engaging character.

[shiningstar]

Originally Posted by Dawg

Only if you're fond of emotionally crippled characters, antelope.

In TOS, Zac and Starbuck conspired to allow Zac a shot at that patrol - a perfectly safe situation, given the armistace, a patrol in name only. Zac was fresh out of the Academy, eager as hell. Remember the exchange between Apollo and Starbuck, right after Apollo sent Zac off to get ready?

Of course, Starbuck felt guilty, and it was a recurring theme. Apollo felt guiltier for having to leave Zac to the tender mercies of the Cylons.

In the mini, lovestruck Stardoe passed her boyfriend when she should have grounded him, he got killed as a result, then she let Lee and Bill fight (for how long?) over it. Only when it looked like they were all going to die did she let him in on her little secret.

Gag me with a spoon.

(Sorry - I've been waiting to use that line for years.)

There really isn't much comparison between the two. Remember, the RDM BSG is really "In Harms Way". Right?

I am
Dawg

Dawg is right. In TOS Starbuck had no 'reason' to fill 'guilty' about anything.
In TOS Zac didn't die because of his inability to fly. He was killed because
his viper couldn't make it to the landing bay quick enough. And it was hard
enough flying a 'damaged' viper.

In TOS ........... Zac had higher scores then even his own father and even
though it was his 'first' patrol there were no doubts that he could pull
his own weight.

In the 'mini' ...........Zac should never have been in the air and Starbuck/kara
had no business 'passing' him when he in fact 'failed'.

In Tos .........while Starbuck was a womanizer he never knowingly put his
other warriors in harms way. He was a strong character if a bit over confident
at times.

[shiningstar]

Originally Posted by thomas7g

I don't think Zac weighed as much on Starbucks soul in the original series cause Starbuck just lived through the cylon assault on the fleet. Presumably he saw quite a few battlestars and alot of people die on a rather large scale. So he saw alot of death. And I don't think he was focusing on Zac so much as losing the fleet.

Zac's death was a key ingredient as to why Apollo was such a tragically noble character. He was constantly hit by loss. First he has to chose between his brother and the fleet, then he finds his mom died. Then he loses Serina. But he still is an incredibly good person. I think that is what makes Apollo such an engaging character.

I think you are so right. I also think that his being a great father to Boxey
a son only by marriage also did much to endure him to the fans.

Good post thomas7g.

Once again I am not putting down TOS. I just didn't realize that the point of Zaks death relative to Starbuck in the mini was an attempt by Moore to look deeper into the issue of guilt felt by someone when they unintentional harm a loved one. Moore believed the issue was raised but not pursued deeply in TOS. It is an interesting aspect of the new series. The fact that this mini concept comes from TOS also shows that at least in some small part Moore is looking at TOS for inspiration.

[Dawg]

I realized I mis-spoke about Starbuck's "guilt" over Zac's death (I was remembering a scene he was referring to Boxey and misremembered the line), but my point was that he had nothing to feel guilty about. The impact on Apollo was greater because he had to leave Zac behind as they tried to warn the fleet.

Again, I have to disagree, antelope, about what you said about Moore looking to TOS for inspiration on this issue. In TOS, there is good natured bantering, conspiring to get qualified-but-green Zac on a Viper patrol when there isn't supposed to be danger. There would have been a lot of "if only" guilt, but they all would have come to the realization that there was nothing to feel guilty about.

On the other hand, Stardoe directly caused Zack's death by her action of passing him despite the fact he was unqualified. Compound that by her selfishly keeping that little fact to herself, which made Zack's death a major point of contention between Lee and his father.

(Also, TOS Zac was an excellent pilot, as witnessed by his outscoring his grandfather, Adama, at the Academy. Mini Zack was a screw-up.)

So, as far as this story point is concerned, there is absolutely no point of similarity between the mini and TOS, except for a character named "Zac" or "Zack" (depending on whether he was from the US or Caprica) died.

So I seriously doubt there was much inspiration from TOS on RDM's part.

I am
Dawg

[shiningstar]

Originally Posted by Dawg

I realized I mis-spoke about Starbuck's "guilt" over Zac's death (I was remembering a scene he was referring to Boxey and misremembered the line), but my point was that he had nothing to feel guilty about. The impact on Apollo was greater because he had to leave Zac behind as they tried to warn the fleet.

Again, I have to disagree, antelope, about what you said about Moore looking to TOS for inspiration on this issue. In TOS, there is good natured bantering, conspiring to get qualified-but-green Zac on a Viper patrol when there isn't supposed to be danger. There would have been a lot of "if only" guilt, but they all would have come to the realization that there was nothing to feel guilty about.

On the other hand, Stardoe directly caused Zack's death by her action of passing him despite the fact he was unqualified. Compound that by her selfishly keeping that little fact to herself, which made Zack's death a major point of contention between Lee and his father.

(Also, TOS Zac was an excellent pilot, as witnessed by his outscoring his grandfather, Adama, at the Academy. Mini Zack was a screw-up.)

So, as far as this story point is concerned, there is absolutely no point of similarity between the mini and TOS, except for a character named "Zac" or "Zack" (depending on whether he was from the US or Caprica) died.

So I seriously doubt there was much inspiration from TOS on RDM's part.

I am
Dawg

Well said Dawg! And I like you telling the 'characters' apart by calling them
Starbuck and Stardoe ................. :laugh: ............nice ..........realllllllllll.........
nice!

[Westy]

In TOS the Cylons killed him. To say that Starbuck killed him for trading places is like saying that his parents killed him by giving birth to him.

In the mini on the other hand, Starbuck did kill him, indirectly anyways. She didn't intend to, but by breaking rules which would have prevented it, she kill him.

[shiningstar]

Originally Posted by Westy

In TOS the Cylons killed him. To say that Starbuck killed him for trading places is like saying that his parents killed him by giving birth to him.

In the mini on the other hand, Starbuck did kill him, indirectly anyways. She didn't intend to, but by breaking rules which would have prevented it, she kill him.

You got it right Westy thanks for you post.

[AlphaNova]

I'm not certain exactly which post you were referring to, but I do know that on CA I raised the issue of "Stardoe"/Kara being responsible for Zak getting killed because she didn't fail him during his flight training. I found it irritating that she had no sympathy for Tighe and yet felt very little guilt over allowing Zak to fly a viper when he had no business doing so. What's more, she allowed Lee to hate and blame Adama for it for years.

In TOS, Starbuck couldn't have know what was going to happen. Practically everyone other than Adama believed the long war with the Cylons was over. He thought he was doing Zak a favor by letting him fly. It's less an error of judgement than that of Kara, in my own opinion.

[The Rain]

Originally Posted by antelope526

It's funny how sometimes you need to read someone elses writing to see the obvious. On cylon.org in the Battlestar Galactica article section entitiled "Battlestar Galactica Rant", a good article comparing doing a continuation versus the mini I came across the issue of Starbuck's guilt for Zak's death.

Even though I remember from TOS that Zak pulled the patrol at the armistice site because Starbuck played sick it didn't dawn on me that there was a plot line in both Saga of A Star World and the mini that Starbuck felt guilty about having caused the death of Zak in both versions. I guess although it was there in TOS it was glossed over pretty rapidly and never mentioned in a future episode. In the mini it is a key point of the relationship between Starbuck, Apollo, and Adama.

At least in my mind mind I find this very interesting and a very good character development point in the Moore version that escaped me when I watched TOS.

Another fine example of the superior writing in the RDM version of BG.

[Darth Marley]

But in defense of TOS, we got to see Rick Springfield vaporized!
That was a much better version of Zak's death from my point of view.
Maybe someone should put THAT clip on the web.

[thomas7g]

Originally Posted by The Rain

Another fine example of the superior writing in the RDM version of BG.

nut.



ya know... all this talk about TOS not saying enough about Zac's death just made me think of what would have been a really good subplot for an episode.

The show starts out with a zoom in toward a portal window on the side of the battlestar. We are in a darken room. No lights are on. From off camera walks in Athena carrying a small tiny candle and a dish. near a photo of Zac she places the dish, then the candle upright on top. She gently lights it.


Close up on Athena: "Happy Birthday little brother"

roll opening credits

[The Rain]

Originally Posted by Darth Marley

But in defense of TOS, we got to see Rick Springfield vaporized!
That was a much better version of Zak's death from my point of view.
Maybe someone should put THAT clip on the web.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[thomas7g]

Darth, did you ever see the outtakes on the DVD?

There was one without sound that was the longer version of that. Zac was dodging the cylons as he raced toward the battlestar landing bay. He almost got there. But the last shot was looking out the landing bay and you could see Zac's fighter exploding.

[Darth Marley]

No I haven't seen that.

I would have been cheering the Cylons in that scene.

[Westy]

I wonder if in the new series there'll be an arc or something about the fact that it was Starbuck and not Adama who was responsible.....hmm...I get the feeling that RDM won't explore it though. Why is that I wonder....Apollo would have to have a big resentment toward Starbuck for what she did. RDM won't do it though.

[Rowan]

Here is a thought. What if Starbuck is attempting to deflect Apollo’s anger away from his dad and on to her in an attempt to get father and son back together? In other words what if she is lying to Apollo about what she did. After all as she puts it it’s the end of the world either of them could die any minute in combat, its obvious she really cares about the commander and this situation between father and son because she’s always bringing it up with Apollo. Maybe it's more important to her that if Apollo dies out there that Commander Adama isn’t left in pain over never having reconciled with his son.

[AlphaNova]

Gaelen, maybe but I really don't think so. It goes along with Ron's idea about giving each character their dark side, so to speak. In Kara's case, it's that she let her emotions get the better of her and wouldn't fail Zac. So he dies, then she lets Lee and Adama be angry with each other for a year or so.

Tyrol was the only guy in the show I actually liked. It's another reason why I don't want to watch this series. I'm afraid they are going to spoil his character and make him a jerk as well.

[Rowan]

it was just a thought...

I loved Tyrols charachter as well, he really impacted me emotionally

[Westy]

I bet they gloss over the resentment Apollo should have toward Starbuck....if they even confront it at all. As for Tyrol, eventually he'll learn that Boomer is/might be a Cylon, and he kills her....probably in front of Boxey.

[shiningstar]

Originally Posted by Westy

I bet they gloss over the resentment Apollo should have toward Starbuck....if they even confront it at all. As for Tyrol, eventually he'll learn that Boomer is/might be a Cylon, and he kills her....probably in front of Boxey.

I think you're right.

[braxiss]

Originally Posted by Darth Marley

No I haven't seen that.

I would have been cheering the Cylons in that scene.

i'm with you on this

Gaelen: Great thought! It shows another area where the plot of the mini may be deeper than people give it credit. Again it shows how if you don't put the mini down out of hand there is a lot to ponder.

Whenever people get cancer they blame something even though the genetic and environmental reality of life is that 33% of all people will die of cancer.

For all we know Zak died like many other novice and even experienced pilots in training. For whatever reason Zak chose to be a pilot and died. At a minimum he passed whatever initial training and education requirements the colonies had to enter flight school. Should Kara Thrace have failed him at school we don't know. We do know she feels guilty about it and at least told Lee Adama she blames herself. We also know that Lee Adama prior to his knowledge of what Kara said found it perfectly fine in his mind to blame his father for Zak's death. Whether anyone is really responsible for Zaks death we don't know. Obviously a board of inquiry did not find Kara Thrace responsible. Guilt is not a rational thing sometimes.

My own wife says she would never forgive me if my son joined the military and died in a war and gets upset when I talk positively of my military experience in front of my children. In a military family with a strong military tradition I could see a lot of unspoken pressure on a son to perform that could lead to tragedy. Many would find blame or guilt where it need not be.

The whole idea and its many ramifications is another interesting idea Moore explores in the mini and hopefully the series. I think Commander Adama and Apollo made their peace on the subject and Kara'a expression of sorrow to Lee will be enough for her to receive his unspoken forgiveness. I doubt they will revisit the issue in the series, nor do they now need to.

[Rowan]

Wow (my new nick name for you at this rate) I Love the way you explain, think and write, hope I'm not making you blush with the complements but... I love picking things apart and exploring it to this degree thanks for participating. Thanks for sharing some personal details. My mother joined the army when she was 17 1/2 (she lied about her age) during WW2, she had only good stories to tell too but then she wasn't exposed to anything either, and since she only had daughters I never felt that presure. She did though add her own kind of pressure on her kids she wanted them to get a higher education "your nothing without that piece of paper" was her favorite expresion. The fall out of that expression and pressure was huge. I dentified profoundly with the relationship between Apollo and his father, it brought back some intense feelings. That hug between them made my heart physically hurt, and tears come to my eyes. that moment when Lee is huggin his dad physically and is resisting it emotionally and then surrenders to it hard stuff to whatch for me.

I get the impression there will be a lot of unspoken emotions being expressed if that makes any sense

[shiningstar]

Gaelen we might not always see eye to eye on all the issues but I do like having you
here.