BG-08: The Living Legend

[Senmut]

Originally Posted by Aeneas

(Latecomer, I know....)


Didn't somebody address this issue in a fanfic once? The scenario went like this....

Initially, there were male and female Warriors. But by the time the War became a stalemate and stretched into a millenia-long war of attrition, Colonial doctrine(or tradition) dictated that it might be more prudent to keep the women out of the front line assignments(so why have 'em serve in the fleet at all if this is the mindset )like fighter pilot or ground pounder because of their reproductive worth as childbearers(akin to the ancient Spartans and our own past inequalities). I guess the rationale was that the Colonials realized that they were up against an almost inexhaustable supply of machine warriors who could be replaced via automated/industrial means whilst por homo-sapiens were forced to replace their losses the old fashioned way--it was set up as a backdrop to the whole Ravishol/cloning process as an alternative. An interesting way to write around an obviously dated concept in TOS.

"our own past inequalities"..."an obviously dated concept"

As I stated in an earlier ost here, we need to guard against interpretin g everything in BSG through the lens of current thinking and attitudes. We have little data on Colonial mores re the relations between the sexes. We should be careful in making blanket statements.

[Dawg]

It is my own observation that the use of female fighter pilots - combat pilots - came out of necessity during LPOG. It was highly unusual, since the only pilots available when the entire compliment of fighter pilots went down were uniformly female shuttle pilots - and that entire compliment of fighter pilots were male.

This is reflective of our own prohibition against women in any kind of combat role.

However, when push came to shove the woment proved to be just as effective as the men in combat situations.

Funny how that works. And funny how, 30 years later, we're seeing women in harms way during combat operations. In another 30 years women combat pilots will be commonplace.

Originally Posted by Senmut

As I stated in an earlier ost here, we need to guard against interpretin g everything in BSG through the lens of current thinking and attitudes.

Exactly right, and this points that out perfectly.

I am
Dawg

[Senmut]

Originally Posted by Dawg

Exactly right, and this points that out perfectly.

How so?

[Dawg]

In 1978, the mere thought of women in combat was not considered. They were fine for support jobs - ferrying planes, etc. - but not in harms' way.

In 2004, we're very much aware of the fact Israeli women fight alongside the men, and in our own armed forces there are women flying helicopters and performing other duties in the line of fire (or otherwise in harm's way).

If you look at LPOG from the 2004 viewpoint, you have to wonder why it's so dramatic to have female combat pilots.

If you look at it from the 1978 viewpoint, it was very forward thinking and somewhat risky.

See?



I am
Dawg

[Darth Marley]

When the WACS were formed, men did not think women pilots could "handle" flying four engine cargo planes.

[Senmut]

Originally Posted by Dawg

In 1978, the mere thought of women in combat was not considered. They were fine for support jobs - ferrying planes, etc. - but not in harms' way.

In 2004, we're very much aware of the fact Israeli women fight alongside the men, and in our own armed forces there are women flying helicopters and performing other duties in the line of fire (or otherwise in harm's way).

If you look at LPOG from the 2004 viewpoint, you have to wonder why it's so dramatic to have female combat pilots.

If you look at it from the 1978 viewpoint, it was very forward thinking and somewhat risky.

See?

Yes. I was being sarcastic. I must also confess to being an old-fashioned bogoted patriarchalist sexist pig. No, I'm not kidding. I really said that. I get annoyed at people always referring to our past as limited, backwards, wrong, or whatever.
"Forward looking...'
I see. Change is always "forward". How could I have missed that????

"Risky" Yes. And sad.

And I could do without the condescension, Dawg.

See?

[Dawg]

I was not being condescending. I was responding to what I thought was a semi-serious question and tried to be a little humorous in the process.

After so long, Senmut, I thought you knew me better than that.

I am
Dawg

[Aeneas]

Originally Posted by Senmut

"our own past inequalities"..."an obviously dated concept"

As I stated in an earlier ost here, we need to guard against interpretin g everything in BSG through the lens of current thinking and attitudes. We have little data on Colonial mores re the relations between the sexes. We should be careful in making blanket statements.

{throwing hands up defensively} Hey, hey no foul intended. Just trying to be galliant for the sake of the lady posters here.

[repcisg]

Change can be a good thing, not always, but sometimes.

[KJ]

Looking back i wish several more scenes were there to flesh out the story a little more.

What if we had?

1) Cain or Sheba relating the tale of the Battle of Molocay with *flashbacks* added, showing the fifth fleet battling Cylons. Maybe showing some of Cain's past history with yet another hologram viewing i.e. recorded logs stored away etc. We'd get a look at other Battlestars this way and see how Cain survived and dealt with this crushing blow to his ego.

2) The Council of Twelve meeting Commander Cain. Perhaps another subplot showing how the Council takes a liking to Cain rather than Adama and may plot to replace him with Cain at some point in the future? Even if he is a warmongeror, they are blinded by him being the famous Living Legend and warm up to him. We could see a quick montage of scenes seeing Cain touring the fleet seeing whats left of humanity and what he has to fight for.

Could explain his actions later on trying to save the fleet from three baseships, with the images of the civilians in his head making him fight for them rather than himself.

3) More of the Pegasus. maybe she has subtle differences besides the similar look of her and the Galactica on the outside.

4) More Cylon civilians, the flip side to the colonials in the fleet. what exactly do Cylon civilians do.

5) Delphian Empire on Gamoray. What do they look like? Maybe it could have been an idea to have Boomer and Starbuck find some prisoner cells during the fuel raid and rescue some Delphians who could have informed the colonials more about the Cylons and their activities. They also could have remained on the Pegasus after she disappeared?! (what would that do for fanfic writers eh?)

6) Gold Spar, Bronze Spar squadrons? If Cain saved survivors of the fifth fleet what other squadrons of Vipers are there besides Silver Spar on the Pegasus? only fanfiction alludes to gold and other colours due to the colour name of Silver Spar squadron?

Add all that in a few more minutes and *voila* a bit more back bone eh?

Anyone got other ideas to add?

Living Legend: The Special Edition!

Certainly would great to add those to a new continuation comic book, expanded Battlestar Galactica episodes footage with all the episode scenes retold along with various logical extensions such as these added to further add more depth to the classic 2 parter Galactica stories.

Still, i got this idea in my head. If fans wanted to expand the stories. They have two options? A CGI short story crafting out the added expanded bits we'd love to see. Good detailed CGI, not the cartoony use of it. Short movies focusing on the character development, well animated bits we fans imagining fitting into the Living Legend episode quite well. Or choice two? All these 'Cough' *re-edited* 'Cough' episode versions with every existing bit of footage from all versions, thrown back in and re-edited together!

In any case, it shows fans love of this episode hasn't dwindled over the years but increased.

I can't wait for next BG fan movie to appear online. Cos its been a few years since we talked, downloaded or seen any at all.

KJ

[repcisg]

KJ you've touched on something TPTB have missed badly over the years. Unlike most Science Fiction Space stories, this one had depth, real depth. Glen, perhaps by accident, created a universe with a culture worth exploring, worth knowing.

[Senmut]

Originally Posted by repcisg

KJ you've touched on something TPTB have missed badly over the years. Unlike most Science Fiction Space stories, this one had depth, real depth. Glen, perhaps by accident, created a universe with a culture worth exploring, worth knowing.

Exactly. BSG has more depth than alot of other stuff put together. Of course, we have FAnFic to fall back on......

[Eric Paddon]

To give you some idea of how extensive the Galactica fanfic network is, Robert Hanczyk reports tonight that his site, the longest running one for Galactica fanfic, is now at 383 stories and still counting!

And when you add what's been done in the Library section here and at other sites, there is certainly at least 500 different Galactica fanfic stories for a fan to peruse without having to spend any money.

[Senmut]

The least of which leaves RDM eating ion vapors! Go, fans!!!!!!!!!!!!

[KJ]

To give you some idea of how extensive the Galactica fanfic network is, Robert Hanczyk reports tonight that his site, the longest running one for Galactica fanfic, is now at 383 stories and still counting!

When is Hanczyk gonna put up the remaining unfilmed scripts???

Only "The Munity" is on his site.

Where are 'Fire In Space' (original version) 'The Beta Pirates', 'Showdown', 'Two For Twilly', 'Crossfire' and 'I Have Seen Earth'!

Searched the whole web and i can't find them anywhere? could Robert Hanczyk help a BG fan dude out here.

KJ

[Eric Paddon]

I think instead of wondering about what Robert doesn't have on his site, and which he doesn't have and isn't part of his prime focus which is posting fanfic, it might be a lot more worthwhile to take advantage of what actually *is* there, which I think is the far more important thing to note about his site.

[peter noble]

The Living Legend

Original Airdate Part 2: December 3, 1978

Writer: Glen A. Larson.

Director: Vince Edwards.

Guest Cast: Lloyd Bridges (Cain), Rod Haase (Tolan).

While on patrol, Apollo and Starbuck discover the missing Battlestar Pegasus under the command of the military genius Cain. Although now under the protection of two Battlestars, the fleet is stopped dead in space do to a critical fuel shortage. To obtain the necessary supplies, Cain and Adama plan a daring raid on a nearby Cylon command base.



Anne Lockhart joins the cast as ace fighter pilot Sheba. Lockhart had been approached early on to appear in the original pilot, but the actress declined the role, feeling that it did not provide enough potential character development. Larson contacted her several months later, indicating that he had her in mind for a new character he was writing. Larson messengered over the first 25 pages of the script to the actress. Lockhart accepted that afternoon.

“I loved this character,” beams Lockhart. “I liked that she had great gumption and she was very good at what she did. She was a warrior equal to the men. In fact, I loved that gender was not made an issue of at all. I also very much liked her vulnerability and her awkwardness with person situations. She never wavered from her convictions or her intelligence as a warrior and as a military character, but she was very awkward emotionally. I really loved that dichotomy of a young woman who is so in control and on top of her game in the military aspects of her life and just as clumsy but trying desperately to cover it and be cool.”

One of the more memorable moments features Apollo, Starbuck and a team of Warriors parachuting into the Cylon capital. Shot at night on the campus of Cal State Northridge, the sequence presented significant lighting problems for director of photography John Penner. “I thought to myself, they’re wearing black parachutes, black jumpsuits, and coming out of a pure black sky in the middle of the night. I said to Larson, ‘Jesus Christ, how am I going to do this Glen?’ and he just smiled at me and laughed and he said, ‘Oh John, you’ll figure out something.’”

Penner’s solution was to lightly dust all the costumes and parachutes with aluminum spray paint. “We sprayed them from a good distance away so that they'd be black, but would have just a little speckle of aluminum on them. Then I had four arcs out there and two of the Maxi-Brutes. That’s what it took on an area like that – a lot of light.”

Laurette Spang recalled the excitement of shooting the sequence, exclaiming, "Oh, it was fun. They strapped us to a crane to make it appear that we were coming down on a parachute. It was at night and it was very exciting. With anything like that, you revert to being eight years old running across your backyard with a laser gun. I had done a lot of television in the years before but I really think that was a highlight. It was just great fun."



Although never in any danger in the series, Colicos recalled one humorous incident on The Living Legend when Baltar leads the Cylon attack on the Galactica. "I was wearing a Cylon helmet while flying in a Cylon Raider,” he says. “They had a light in the helmet and I suddenly realized that my forehead was burning. I couldn't speak to anyone because the microphones were not connected, so I started making all these Charlie Chaplin pantomimes and they finally opened the sealed cabin."

The finale of The Living Legend has the Pegasus disappear after the destruction of two Cylon basestars. "It just went off like General McArthur," says director Vince Edwards, "old soldiers just fade away. It just faded away." Glen Larson has no doubts however that the Pegasus would have returned had the series continued. "I believe we would have brought Lloyd Bridges back. I deliberately obscured what happened in that battle. We don't know exactly what happened but it was very clear that it wasn't definitive that we had killed them off. I figured that Cain was too good. That worked and we would want to bring him back. It also gave you a chance to go off and do episodes with just him and his group."

[kingfish]

Hopefully Cain wasn't returning as a cylon replicant as suggested. That would be too hard a blow to recover from.

[KJ]

I think instead of wondering about what Robert doesn't have on his site, and which he doesn't have and isn't part of his prime focus which is posting fanfic, it might be a lot more worthwhile to take advantage of what actually *is* there, which I think is the far more important thing to note about his site.

Well i think its a fair question Eric? Why can't i ask if i can't get the scripts elsewhere on the web. if BGInfosphere were still about no one would be asking this cos they had them all!

Fanfic is one thing, actual scripts done by writers who worked on the show is another. Abandoned concepts, story ideas etc were all done in those scripts and i for one would like to read them in my own time for my own enjoyment as a fan. I've BG fanfic's and has everyone else buti'd like a change of pace. And would like to now read stuff that was done during the show's writers, and try to imagine in my head as i read the script, what might have been filmed and crafted out at one point.

Surely that s not too hard to ask?!

Far as taking advantage of whats there, i already have? Which brings me back to my original question which isn't answered yet.

Does anyone know where to get the original unfilmed Galactica scripts in file format online? (other than "The Mutiny")

I'm sure others feel as i do but just ain't saying so. If those scripts are out there can anybody in the "know" point fellow fans in the right direction!

KJ

[Gemini1999]

Originally Posted by Lord Kingjason

Fanfic is one thing, actual scripts done by writers who worked on the show is another. Abandoned concepts, story ideas etc were all done in those scripts and i for one would like to read them in my own time for my own enjoyment as a fan. I've BG fanfic's and has everyone else buti'd like a change of pace. And would like to now read stuff that was done during the show's writers, and try to imagine in my head as i read the script, what might have been filmed and crafted out at one point.

KJ -

It's interesting that you brought this up.... I don't know if we are thinking about the same thing, but I tell you my thought on BSG scripts anyway... One of the best Sci Fi resources for a long gone TV show is the Catacombs website for Space:1999 (my other fave 70's show). They have complete script synopses for all 24 epsiodes - for each epsiode, they have complete cast listings, trivia, screen caps, etc. Here's a link so you can see the format I'm talking about:

Space:1999 Catacombs episode guide

Space:1999 Script Synopses format

It would be a monster of a project to do, but we could just transcribe the scripts and build on that after we get them all transcribed...

Just an idea

Best,
Bryan

[Eric Paddon]

Originally Posted by Lord Kingjason

Well i think its a fair question Eric?

The question you asked was "When is Hanczyk going to put up the rest of the scripts????" Whether intentionally or not, this came off as being dismissive of what is there, which is a lot of hard work effort he and a lot of people have put into that site over the last eight plus years, and seemingly taking him to task for what isn't there. If Robert had an unfilmed script at his disposal that he could post, he'd do it. Don't get on him for not having that, and somehow suggesting (intentionally or not) that the site is lacking for not having it, because that's how it ultimately comes off.

And as a matter of fact, "Two For Twilly" is on the site, as a fanfic adapted story that used the unshot script to turn it into a fanfic story.

[Senmut]

Seeing the scripts would be kind of fun. The variations in dialogue the actors spoke, or the last-millicenton changes scribbled in by whomever.

[KJ]

Seeing the scripts would be kind of fun. The variations in dialogue the actors spoke, or the last-millicenton changes scribbled in by whomever.

How true Senmut. For example. I can imagine how the opening of The Mutiny would begin, if it were actually a filmed episode. As it starts with Boomer, Starbuck and Apollo coming back from a patrol. With no reply from the bridge Starbuck gets bored and pulls some maneuvers with his Viper spinning around, before being told off by Colonel Tigh.

Stuff like that, its easy to imagine it happening with your imagination with the classic BG stock footage FX. Cos whats written down in scripts, captures the heart of the series and you can see certain things happening that you'd expect from an actual episode. Reading the script you try to see how it would have been done in your minds eye.

Out of all of them, Showdown, Two For Twilly and the original 2 part Fire In Space were almost shot for the first season weren't they! I Have Seen Earth along with Two For Twilly and Larson's Final Flight script might have been pushed back to the second season (barring that S-2 recovered document we've all heard about?) Crossfire became Gun On Ice Planet Zero and The Beta Pirates was demed too expensive to make?

Still getting round to reading the scripts, we can imagine what might have been. And since we know the characters so well. We can get added enjoyment out of reading situations they get involved in and dialogue they speak, imagine every sound, voice heard, character body language etc in everything you read in every page of an unfilmed script. Even though it wasn't filmed you can look back saying, i'd love to have seen that, that wouldn't happen, and come across abandoned concepts the scripts, had but the televisied episodes didn't have etc, and try to envision what they would have been like onscreen!

KJ

[Senmut]

LKJ once more wins the Caprican Prize for Eloquence!

[KJ]

Eh?

[Fragmentary]

Talk about throwing everything but the kitchen sink into an episode.

You know, its episodes like this one that really show how Galactica was at its best when they were doing an ensemble show. The ones that were features for just one character never seem as strong. I love how everyone gets into the act, even Cassiopia jumps into the fray.

I also kind of wondered just how different Cain and Adama's command stlyes would have been if their circumstances had been reversed. Cain's style is almost the only way he could be, out there alone with no backup and no civilian influence, where as Adama must always take into account that he's protector of the last vestiges of humanity. If he didn't have that, if the Galactica had been on her own since the destruction of the colonies, would Adama also be obssessed with striking back against the Cylons no matter the odds?

In a way the show kind of shoes how circumstances might mold the Commander (and crew) of a Battlestar. And it blow'd stuff up real good.

[kingfish]

Welcome to fleets. Well stated.


Paul

[kingfish]

Originally Posted by Gemini1999

KJ -

It's interesting that you brought this up.... I don't know if we are thinking about the same thing, but I tell you my thought on BSG scripts anyway... One of the best Sci Fi resources for a long gone TV show is the Catacombs website for Space:1999 (my other fave 70's show). They have complete script synopses for all 24 epsiodes - for each epsiode, they have complete cast listings, trivia, screen caps, etc. Here's a link so you can see the format I'm talking about:

Space:1999 Catacombs episode guide

Space:1999 Script Synopses format

It would be a monster of a project to do, but we could just transcribe the scripts and build on that after we get them all transcribed...

Just an idea

Best,
Bryan

Catacombs is an EXCELLENT site for 1999.

[Eric Paddon]

What also elevates the strength of this episode is that it's the first since LPOTG to cast a big shadow over the rest of the series. In an earlier age, a strong episode like this in a TV series would never be dealt with again in subsequent weeks, but LL introduced a new and vital permanent character to the cast in Sheba, and Commander Cain was still referred to in WOTG and HOG. Think of how in a "Star Trek" an important guest character in a story would disappear and never be seen again by contrast.

[Senmut]

Originally Posted by Lord Kingjason

Eh?

In udder words, I agree with you Dude.