BG-08: The Living Legend

[Eric Paddon]

Originally Posted by kingfish

IMHO a Battlestar has 4 Viper squadrons. Cain may have sent Silver Spar with Sheba and kept Bronze, Gold, and Copper in reserve.

The whole Silver Spar squadron? That I'm not sure of because it seemed to me that in War Of The Gods, what happened was Adama creating a new squadron called Silver Spar for Bojay to command, and since it had established Galactica pilots in the mix like Jolly, I think that (along with Sheba's "Bojay's all I've got left" remark) still suggests that Sheba and Bojay are the only two Pegasus pilots aboard the Galactica.

HERE WE GO!! I figure this is what its all about ,Super Space Action!!
COMMANDER CAIN RULES!!I didn't trust him at first but hey "A MAN'S
GOTTA DO WHAT A MAN'S GOTTA DO".I liked the little power struggles
between CAIN and ADAMA.SHEBA is HOT I'm glad she came along!
When APOLLO & BOOMER pull there guns on THE PEGASUS for the
fuel I loved that, don't screw with those 2 they WILL shoot you.
STARBUCK hitting on SHEBA was great,He doesn't always get the girl?
To get to see a CYLON planet is very cool and attacking it in a black
leather 2 gun death mission is awsome!The 1 Battlestar & 2 Vipers VS
2 Baseships was a fantastic ending.It's a shame the show didn't go longer
so we could see the return of COMMANDER CAIN!

[kingfish]

Originally Posted by Captain Morgan

HERE WE GO!! I figure this is what its all about ,Super Space Action!!
COMMANDER CAIN RULES!!I didn't trust him at first but hey "A MAN'S
GOTTA DO WHAT A MAN'S GOTTA DO".I liked the little power struggles
between CAIN and ADAMA.SHEBA is HOT I'm glad she came along!
When APOLLO & BOOMER pull there guns on THE PEGASUS for the
fuel I loved that, don't screw with those 2 they WILL shoot you.
STARBUCK hitting on SHEBA was great,He doesn't always get the girl?
To get to see a CYLON planet is very cool and attacking it in a black
leather 2 gun death mission is awsome!The 1 Battlestar & 2 Vipers VS
2 Baseships was a fantastic ending.It's a shame the show didn't go longer
so we could see the return of COMMANDER CAIN!

I thought like you CM. However my hopes were dashed when reading an artical at Susan Paxton's site. Cain was coming back in season two. The Return of the Pegasus was to be the first episode of season 2. However Cain and the Pegasus crew are now Cylon replicants. Lloyd was coming back as Cain. Sheba was going to die at the opening. Athena was going to have plastic surgery.

[kingfish]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

The whole Silver Spar squadron? That I'm not sure of because it seemed to me that in War Of The Gods, what happened was Adama creating a new squadron called Silver Spar for Bojay to command, and since it had established Galactica pilots in the mix like Jolly, I think that (along with Sheba's "Bojay's all I've got left" remark) still suggests that Sheba and Bojay are the only two Pegasus pilots aboard the Galactica.

Silver Spar might have had many more members off screen. Remember Blue Squadron also had Barton and Ortega only featured in Murder on the Rising Star.

Originally Posted by kingfish

I thought like you CM. However my hopes were dashed when reading an artical at Susan Paxton's site. Cain was coming back in season two. The Return of the Pegasus was to be the first episode of season 2. However Cain and the Pegasus crew are now Cylon replicants. Lloyd was coming back as Cain. Sheba was going to die at the opening. Athena was going to have plastic surgery.

I would hope that the real CAIN would have still been alive and as for SHEBAS
death I wouldn't have liked that at all!Changing ATHENAS face would have been
a mistake as well I think the actress that played her is 1 of the most beautiful
on 70's TV!

[Eric Paddon]

The emergence of that memo on Susan's site actually shattered more than 20 plus years of illusions I'd had about what a second season of Galactica would have been like. We would have gotten the equivalent of a "Space 1999" second season that implausibly slaughtered half the supporting cast, changed the characters and ignored every bit of development over the course of the season.

If it came down to a question of killing off a female character, Athena was by that point a lot more dispensible than Sheba.

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

The emergence of that memo on Susan's site actually shattered more than 20 plus years of illusions I'd had about what a second season of Galactica would have been like. We would have gotten the equivalent of a "Space 1999" second season that implausibly slaughtered half the supporting cast, changed the characters and ignored every bit of development over the course of the season.

If it came down to a question of killing off a female character, Athena was by that point a lot more dispensible than Sheba.

Sounds like this out-line for the 2nd season is pretty bad still I would have liked
for it to happen just to see where the show would have ended up.If it kept going
maybe they would have gotten everything back in line by season 3 or 4 or 5?
But it seems they dropped the ball with GALACTICA 80 so who knows what would
have happened.

[justjackrandom]

I see Cain as more of a Montgomery-type character than a Patton or a Macarthur (the other US general he has been likened to, and one that fits better if you buy into it having to be an American). He is loved and adored as a hero by his men and his country, completely convinced in his military brilliance, and is a really mediocre military leader that just happens to be very lucky.

He totally believes in his own press, and is therefore convinced of his own invincibility. Given his luck, it is also possible that he did survive the clash with the two basestars…and then escaped the attack that was sure to come from the third (we always seem to forget Baltar’s basestar was in striking range at the beginning of the encounter, and could probably easily gotten back to within strike range once the Pegasus was damaged by the other two).

The end of the episode also shows both the two-dimensional thinking of the writers/directors/producers, and by extension the tactical stupidity of the Cylons. The baseships would have only had to maneuver just slightly out of alignment to free their firing arcs of the possibility of hitting each other.

Given that, this is an excellent episode, with only a few continuity errors. It gives gear-heads like me some great new information on Colonial and Cylon technology, gives us some information and background on the organization of the Colonial military and its branches, introduces us to great new characters, and provides for some really incredible character interplay.

While not my favorite, it ranks high on my list.

Bill

[kingfish]

If we are talking in terms of the navy then Cain is the equivelent of Admiral William Bull Halsey who was a gambler and risk taker. Halsey received his wings at age 50. All C.O.'s of a carrier had to be able to fly. They said that Halsey was one of the worst pilots.

[KJ]

IMHO a Battlestar has 4 Viper squadrons. Cain may have sent Silver Spar with Sheba and kept Bronze, Gold, and Copper in reserve.

You mean, the same way The Galactica originally had 'Green' and 'Yellow' Squadrons before the show writers forgot about them? Maybe Cain had a 'Gold Spar Squadron' but Copper? heh....

Does raise another question about Battlestar squadrons doesn't it. i believe the people working in the costume department during the series run revealed, the various 'Collar Pins', 'Viper Helmet Ornaments', and Battlestar flag emblems of the other ships.

The Battlestars:

* "Prometheus"

* "Olympia"

* "Cerberus",

* "Solaria",

* "Pacifica",

* "Belloraphon",

* "Acropolis",

* "Triton"

And the destroyed "Atlantia".

Still, The Galactica where you believe it or not had more Vipers than before come, "The Hand of God". So unless there was an episode, that had a ship that mass produced Vipers! it's unlikely Sheba and Bo-Jay are the only ones from the Battlestar Pegasus's Silver Spar Squadron! They had 2 to 1 odds meaning they must have had at least had 150 Vipers to that on the Cylons; 300 plus Raiders.


Although, given a Battlestar's huge size. At full strength she must have over 200 to 250 Vipers at maximum. The Pegasus must have entergrated pilots survivors from, the "Battle of Molocay". Living Legend doen't state exactly how many Vipers the Pegasus has? But logically Cain did pick up other survivors of that famed battle! Thus adding to his beloved status, as a military hero, or worshiped like a "King" of kings.

He totally believes in his own press, and is therefore convinced of his own invincibility. Given his luck, it is also possible that he did survive the clash with the two basestars…and then escaped the attack that was sure to come from the third (we always seem to forget Baltar’s basestar was in striking range at the beginning of the encounter, and could probably easily gotten back to within strike range once the Pegasus was damaged by the other two).

Nice stuff there Justjackransom!

But not soon after in "Take The Celestra", we learn former Battlestar Commander Kronus, an iron fisted and very strict 'By-the-book' type of Commander. Destroyed "THREE" Cylon baseships. but at the loss of his own ship. While losing one's own ship isn't considered a victory, Kronus in an unchronicled tale destroyed three Cylon Basestars. If you take into account the Raiders in such a battle, thats over nine hundred plus any supporting ships, they might have had in such a recourse.

While Cain maybe a Patton or MacArthur type, Kronus may even better tactically than Cain. given he made a huge sacrifice to whatever ends, to halt the Cylons manuvers during the battle he was involved in.

Man, i love these debates, you can come at these episodes again and again to see various angles in the stories. And ask so many "what if" type questions.


KJ

[kingfish]

Missing scenes LL:

https://pp226.proboards25.com/index.c...num=1088017758

[KJ]

Still the DVD hasn't got several of the scenes i've heard that were in the Telemovie version.

A scene involving the Pegasus, launching Vipers against Baltar's Raiders and showing that Sheba, Bo Jay and a unknown Pegasus Viper pilot going into battle.

Another i've heard of and read, said there was an extended scene between Cain and Cassiopea in the Pegasus's lifestation before the injured, Sheba is wheeled in. And the Telemovie version is said to have the completed and extended "Gamoray night assault" scenes by Apollo's Galactica Task Force team, i.e. Starbuck and Boomer following the Gold command Centurion to the control room and the extended conversations between the two I.L. series Cylons on Gamoray. But all with the completed sound effects and dialogues.

Not the "RAW" footage that is seen on the DVD version.

Same goes for some of the other deleted scenes that didn't make the DVD but were in the telemovie broadcasted versions, of other episodes.

KJ

[KJ]

Like i've said, if there is another DVD re-release done "Robotech Director's cut" style. I'd like to see all the episodes with the deleted scenes reinserted, along with a 6.1 THX Mastered version of the surround sound and audio tracks. Isolated score track only.

Along with extras we didn't but should have got, first time round. Like screen tests of Don Johnson playing Starbuck's role, Terry Carter, and others. TV Spots, radio ads, Theatrical Trailers, All the episode scripts and unfilmed scripts, A photo gallery, pre-production concept artwork in full.

Since it's a DVD and not being aired, i can't see why not. As an extended cut, with all footage placed back in the episodes was done for Anime TV series such as Robotech and Neon Genesis. Why shouldn't a beloved live action, sci-fi series receive the same treatment!

Living Legend would come off as an even better sci-fi episode classic.

KJ

[kingfish]

Originally Posted by Lord Kingjason

Like i've said, if there is another DVD re-release done "Robotech Director's cut" style. I'd like to see all the episodes with the deleted scenes reinserted, along with a 6.1 THX Mastered version of the surround sound and audio tracks. Isolated score track only.

Along with extras we didn't but should have got, first time round. Like screen tests of Don Johnson playing Starbuck's role, Terry Carter, and others. TV Spots, radio ads, Theatrical Trailers, All the episode scripts and unfilmed scripts, A photo gallery, pre-production concept artwork in full.

Since it's a DVD and not being aired, i can't see why not. As an extended cut, with all footage placed back in the episodes was done for Anime TV series such as Robotech and Neon Genesis. Why shouldn't a beloved live action, sci-fi series receive the same treatment!

Living Legend would come off as an even better sci-fi episode classic.

KJ

Jason like minds think alike.

[Eric Paddon]

"Still the DVD hasn't got several of the scenes i've heard that were in the Telemovie version. "

Not true. All of the Living Legend telemovie scenes are in the DVD supplement section. Only with LPOTG was there a missing telemovie scene in the DVD.

[justjackrandom]

It would be nice, but I’m not waiting for a re-release or a "director's cut". Working with the DVD material and the soundtracks, I just started ripping to “Lucas-ize” TOS. I plan to re-edit the entire series, inserting and moving scenes to include more of the good stuff they cut out, and (hopefully) fixing some of the continuity errors and disconnects that exist. My partner in crime and I are kicking around whether or not leave it in series format, or present it in miniseries format, in two-hour chunks. If we can find some help with digital animation (neither of us is too familiar, and I don’t want to take the time to learn) that doesn’t look too different from the footage originally shot, we want to add and clean up some FX shots, including some interiors such as hanger bay shots, etc.

Unfortunately, since I am doing this with copywrited material, distributing the product to other fans might prove problematic. Its something I’ll have to research more carefully.

This is a pre-curser project to a fan film that I’m hoping to kick into production sometime next year, which will be a continuation.

JJR

[KJ]

Hi Eric, as i stated though the ones on the DVD were somewhat "RAW" i'm sure the Telemovie version of LL had the completed scenes. Didn't mean they weren't on the disc though. Whoever did the DVD's extras should be thanked, but i'm saying they could have at least stored the footage in the right places is all, as the deleted scenes section on the DVD's also has bloopers/and unused alternate shots and unused takes.

It would be nice, but I’m not waiting for a re-release or a "director's cut". Working with the DVD material and the soundtracks, I just started ripping to “Lucas-ize” TOS. I plan to re-edit the entire series, inserting and moving scenes to include more of the good stuff they cut out, and (hopefully) fixing some of the continuity errors and disconnects that exist. My partner in crime and I are kicking around whether or not leave it in series format, or present it in miniseries format, in two-hour chunks. If we can find some help with digital animation (neither of us is too familiar, and I don’t want to take the time to learn) that doesn’t look too different from the footage originally shot, we want to add and clean up some FX shots, including some interiors such as hanger bay shots, etc.

Good on ya Justackransom!

Don't be too ashamed, as there are plenty of fan movies out there and more Battlestar Galactica ones the better! There are several The Pegasus survives movies out there yours would be no different. and several fan trailers and fan movies floating out on the net (for non-profit) DO EXIST so in that respect, yeah more power to you.

Watching the series again there are editing "flubs" i wish were corrected. Apollo and Boomer drawing there guns in LL and the earlier first meeting with Cain; should be as it was in Mission Galactica: The Cylon Attack not cut up and all. i only hope several of the old telemovies like LPOTG turn up.

That and Universal clearing up the old WOTG's Cloven Hooves footage mystery. How hard would it be for Larson to have said on the DVD's It just don't exist anymore?.

Ah well, all the best to ya doing your extended versions.

KJ

[BRG]

Brilliant! 5 out of 5.

An amazing episode, easily the best of the series so far. It introduced some great new characters, had some wonderful drama, and edge of your seat action! And to to crown it all, Lloyd Bridges as Commander Cain!

One thing I loved about having a guest star the calibur of Lloyd Bridges was that every other actor on the show raised there game and gave brilliant performances. This often happens when a big star appears on a show, and I'm pleased that when other top drawer stars appear later in the series(Astaire & McNee) the regulars again rise to the challange.

Adama & Cain's scenes together are excellent. These two great men are at odds how the think they should deal with the Cylons. Adama's instinct is to avoid conflict to defend the civillian fleet. While Cain want to get ripped into them. The beauty of this is that both men have a genuine belief that there way is correct, and the viewer can see the logic & problems with both stratigies. These scenes are played perfectly by Green & Bridges. Another scene that seemed real to me was the officers club scen between the Viper Pilots of the Galactica and the Pegasus. The fact that the Pegasus pilots, who run constand strike missions against the Cylons would look down there noses at the Galactica's pilots who mostly fly recon patroles or escort missions. Apollo gave a very good defence of his men, and put the cocky Silver Spar pilots in there place.

Sheba is a great character, and I was delighted that she became a regular for the rest of the series. And a very rare thing in Sci Fi, we have a strong female character that actually acts like a female! Most simmilar characters from other shows- Tasha Yar(TNG), Ivanova(B5), Kira(DS9) & Starbuck(new BSG) all act like men. They are angry, overly aggresive, hard drinking, hard shagging women who look like butch dykes. Sheba acts like a woman, dresses like a woman, and her ability as a warrior is never questioned by Apollo, Starbuck or Boomer. As a man, I find this type of character more appealing, and more believable. I wish other shows would take note!

If I can make one last point. I once read that Gene Roddenberry's first choice for Star Trek's captain was Lloyd Bridges. He was offered the part of Captain Robert April, but politely turned it down as TV sci fi at that point was "Monster of the Week" stuff that he didn't like. But I've always wondered what he would have been like in William Shatner's place, and his performance as Cain in this episode gives us a clear picture of what it would be like if Lloyd Bridges took the center seat of the Enterprise!
BRG

[Mustex]

I didn't like this episode all that much. Cain seemed a little flat to me. Also, I felt Adama had a bit too much screen time at the beggining, when they should have stayed focused on Starbuck and Apollo (they're the heros, and hence the archetypes we should relate to, Adama's the sage, he guides them, and should probably remain somewhat mysterious).

[kingfish]

Cain is the best character in BG history next to Iblis. Lloyd was a like a rabbit that Glen pulled out of his hat, the ratings topped the chart. Cain is like Patton. I loved the movie with George C. Scott and could have pictured him as Cain if he were alive today. "I will not be denied my victory over the Cylons."

[Mustex]

Originally Posted by kingfish

Cain is the best character in BG history next to Iblis. Lloyd was a like a rabbit that Glen pulled out of his hat, the ratings topped the chart. Cain is like Patton. I loved the movie with George C. Scott and could have pictured him as Cain if he were alive today. "I will not be denied my victory over the Cylons."

Yeah, but I guess I'm in the minority on not getting much from him (I also hate the movie "The Godfather", and think Copola mutilated Puzo's novel). Now Iblis...well I can't express how cool he was using even the vast vocabulary of borrowed words available in the English Language.

[julix]

I love Lloyd in this.... he had a twinkle in his eye! I also loved that he made starbuck squirm as far as Cassie was concerned. Kind of a nice change of pace.

[repcisg]

We must bear in mind the difference in the time between then and now.Back then there was no such thing as a bible for a series. Each week the writers would cook up a new idea or say to themselves wouldn’t it be neat if ---. And go from there.

Today the new series started with a complete season planned from the start, the second season is most likely already planned out. Doing it this way is far more efficient, than the old. This one reason so much of the special effects in the old series were recycled, there just wasn’t time to do a whole new sequence each week.

Glen had done some conceptualizing for the next season, insignia for several Battlestars had been made, and some thought given to the appearance of another Battlestar (the Prometheus) beyond its name and a shoulder patch I don’t think anyone got any further than that.

As Prometheus is a Greek mythological figure we can do pretty much what we want with it. And Jason is right, it is ludicrous to think the whole of the Colonial military would be in one place at one time. Encountering frontier guard units should be expected, and deep space explores should also be expected.

The number of potential stories is just mind boggling.

[Eric Paddon]

Mustex, I'm afraid I don't understand a couple of your points in your initial post. How is Cain "flat" when he manages to show quite a wide range of characteristics throughout the two parts? In a single episode, we saw a more multi-dimensional commander than we ever saw in say Captain Kirk or Commander Koenig throughout the entire run of their respective series.

Also, your point about "Adama having too much screen time at the beginning" makes little sense to me since Adama has no screen time at the beginning. He simply shows up during the course of his normal duties and there is nothing out of character for him to be on the bridge conferring with his executive officer about a fuel shortage situation.

[Gemini1999]

I always find that "Living Legend" is one of the most watchable episodes of TOS. I never tire of this one... I think that Lloyd Bridges did a wonderful job as Commander Cain - he wasn't a young guy, but he did have that "spark of life" to him. Lloyd Bridges still had that spark later on - you should see him play the part of Ted Danson's father in "Cousins" with Isabella Rosselini.

It was understandable how Cain's crew felt about him - they'd been fighting the Cylons successfully on their own for some time longer than the Galactica had been running from them. I really felt for Cain when Adama pulled rank on him - I know that Adama was the commander of the Fleet, but that fleet was comprised largely of refugees. I never really understood how Adama managed that one.

I think the only scene that really bugged me was when Cain knowingly destroyed the two Cylon tankers. just so they would have to go for the fuel depot at Gamoray. I think along with the Cylon tankers, he destroyed a bit of his credibility with Apollo and even Sheba.

Another thing I found interesting was the fact that Sheba was a combat pilot. In "Lost Planet of the Gods", they made it sound like there weren't any female warriors in the fleet. I always wonder how Sheba got by them.....!

I love this episode!

Best,
Bryan

[BST]

Most likely, Adama received his commission, as Commander, before Cain. I think that would make him ranking officer.

[Eric Paddon]

Originally Posted by BST

Most likely, Adama received his commission, as Commander, before Cain. I think that would make him ranking officer.

Yes, the original novelization said that was the reason, and I also expanded on that in my own adaptation by noting that as President of the Council, Adama as de jure head of the Colonial Nation would also have the authority to relieve Cain, who clearly was not a member of the Council the way Adama was part of the military and governing civil authority prior to the Holocaust.

[Gemini1999]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

Yes, the original novelization said that was the reason, and I also expanded on that in my own adaptation by noting that as President of the Council, Adama as de jure head of the Colonial Nation would also have the authority to relieve Cain, who clearly was not a member of the Council the way Adama was part of the military and governing civil authority prior to the Holocaust.

Eric -

Thanks for the reminder on the novelization material. It's been a long time since I read it. I also forgot that Adama was the acting president of the Council of the Twelve. The only on-screen reason that was given that I can recall (without re-watching) was Apollo stating that Adama was the Fleet Commander.

On a side note: I would also like to say that I've just started reading the Classic Galactica novels. I finished "Saga" and moved on to "Gun on Ice Planet Zero" as they are in the same book. I must say that Robert Thurston did a terrific job novelizing and fleshing out the stories. The stories go much deeper into the characters and the situations from the original scripts. I can't wait to buy the next one!

Best,
Bryan

[BST]

You're right. I completely forgot that Adama was "wearing two hats" - one civilian and one military.

[Eric Paddon]

Yes, the "Adama is the Fleet Commander" is the only direct reference to the command structure in the episode. I think this is one case where taking the series as a whole, it becomes easier to infer certain points and the fact that Cain always appears in a warrior's uniform and not the more formal command uniform that Adama always wears, would also serve as a good subliminal indicator of how in the overall scheme of the Colonial Command structure, Cain would place lower than Adama.

The one underlying point regarding Cain's motives that I don't think came out in the episode or the novelization has to do with the matter of why Cain is determined to keep fighting at this point.

Cain is described as the greatest warrior in the Fleet's history. And just think of what Cain has to deal with with the realization that he wasn't there to do anything about the destruction of the Colonies? That fact alone has to weigh heavily on his conscience, because no doubt his own sense of confidence in his ability would make him think that if he had been there, he might have made the difference.

So Cain's determination to keep fighting is best seen not through the too narrow prism of mad egomania, but with the much deeper subtext of guilt that his decision to not return home after the Battle of Molocay may have been the most tragic mistake of his life. Taking out the baseships to try and give Adama and his Fleet his idea of long-term security, is thus at this point the only way he can think of to make up for that, and if he isn't successful in taking them all out and survives, he then would consider it an obligation to keep tying the Cylons down and hopefully buy Adama more long-term security.

Just my take on this very fascinating character.