Canon Question--12 colonies

[justjackrandom]

Originally Posted by peter noble

Ok, how do you all see the 12 worlds fitting in to the cosmology you're working out, bearing in mind that those worlds are named after the 12 signs of the Zodiac and that they should share some or all of the attrbutes of those signs (fire, water, earth air)?.

Hey Peter! I figure it’s the horse before the cart: our zodiacal designations, and their associated attributes, come down to us from the Lords of Kobol. Each tribe had a designation, (the 13th being Terra). When the 13th got here, they chose to name the constellations of the precession (the zodiac) after the 12 “lost” tribes they left behind, so that they would never be forgotten.

Originally Posted by peter noble

P.S. I hypothesize that Orion (mentioned more than once in the series) is not an actual planet but the name of the system's asteroid belt which is mined and also may have entertainment complexes, shipyards etc in it.

Never thought about it...but that is very, very cool. I like it. I'll have to go back and check the references, but do you mind if I use it?



JJR

[peter noble]

Originally Posted by justjackrandom

Never thought about it...but that is very, very cool. I like it. I'll have to go back and check the references, but do you mind if I use it?



JJR

I don't mind at all. There's references to a gambling place on Orion, Orion checks (or chips) and someone's face being "paler than an Orion moon".

I just thought Orion could be the name of the largest asteroid/planetoid in the belt.

Peter

[thomas7g]

Originally Posted by Gemini1999

Tom -

You did an excellent job! It's one of the best references that there are regarding the Colonial star system(s).

I like it!

Bryan

Thank you! I'm glad you like it!

[gmd3d]

This is a working idea that I am playing with for the colonial worlds, where they are and if the are in a single star system, or a multi star system as seen below. The picture is based of Thomas7g reworking of the map on the Galactica bridge.

This is a few ideas i have please add to if you can. about your ideas of the colonial planets.

The colonial star system.

[IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

The single red star at the edge of the colonial systems is: SAPPHO, (sapphire)+(mega sun-by the colonials that made Scorpio their home, the scorpion and their brothers the Nomens). and only one planet that is capable of supporting life, and that is Scorpio, it has many moons which contain valuable ores.

SAPPHO: has one planet capable of supporting life and that is Scorpio.
Scorpio: class H. world, suited for humans although can be very hot and arid. Large desert areas
Independent society, planet in colonial space. Tough terrain, people known as Scorpions and a nomadic
People as Borellians who inhabit the deserts areas of Scorpios. Very much laws onto to themselves.

The next star in this system is: KALLISTO, (most beautiful) an almost white star in the system and it light is seen as the most beautiful in all the system, it is also the largest star. Around this star orbits four life supporting worlds, Piscon is the most wondrous. It is a water world no large continents, so all the cities are submerged.

Libra: class B. world, colonized

Canceria: class

Aeriana: class

Piscon: class D . world, suited for humans , mainly a water world, with submerged cities

Then its the Twin stars themselves and they are called: ALCAEUS, (strength) and : ALEXIUS (defender). The colonial planets that orbit them are the wealthiest and most influential.

Sagittara: class A. world, a climate that is suited for human existence Democratic society ,most powerful and wealthy planet in colonial space. Where the seat of power is held.

Caprica: class A. world, a climate that is suited for human existence Democratic society, second most powerful and wealthy planet in colonial space.

Gemoni: class A. world, a climate that is suited for human existence Democratic society, twin moons that are capable of supporting life planet in colonial space.

Virgon: class A. world, a climate that is suited for human existence.

The last star in the colonial system is PHOTIOS, (light) a yellow star, around it orbits another three worlds, that human were able to colonise.

Aquaria: class

Taura: class

Leo: class

[repcisg]

An interesting concept, worthy of further study.

[gmd3d]

I did this quick rendering of what Scorpio system could look like...

will I DO more of the system.. this is a part of my bakground into the colonial history .. we have the name of the planets.. but not the Suns..how many planets
have moons etc..

I am going at this as if the colonies inhabited 4 systems (1 A BINARY SYSTEM) lets have Idea.. and I will map them.


[IMG][/IMG]

[Lara]

Some great food for thought in this thread. Nice analysis of the map!

I like the idea of the twelve colonies spread over 4 systems at a meaningful distance apart.
It is better science to have fewer planets per star inhabited by humans: we have very specific needs.
It would allow for the loss and them rediscovery of interstellar space flight, and that isolation means a strong cultural difference between the colonies, or groups of colonies, that would be supported by the obvious novelty of the council of 12 and agreement between worlds. I believe it would also allow for scattered outposts that no one knew of: why would Capricans know where Tauran exploreers went?
also differences in technology levels, and the envy that may cause: perhaps Scorpia is backward, and Baltar resents the percieved superiority of other colonies?? The enemies of my enemies are my friends, and my new friends will show you all the folly of putting me down!?

I have always assumed the colonial charcter of each planet should somehow be referenced to the corresponding starsign: the Capricans are technologically advanced, active and forthright, whereas the Taurans would be more methodical and steady, valuing the aesthetic more highly.
It can be fun/frustrating to take other clues and try to tie this to ancient civilisations from earth: the Capricans are very Greek, and not just their names, perhaps the Taurans are Minoan (hence the Bull connexion), the Pisceans were atlantian, others could be tied up to the ancient people of South America, Asia, etc, of the bronze age, any of which were pyramid builders. We know that ancient Kobol architecture looked like ancient egypt with the use of the pyramid form for the tombs, that was then mirrored in Caprica City, and the hypostyle hall (Karnak Temple). One possibility is that it was the tomb of the founder of Caprica that Adama visited. Anyone clear on which tomb it was??

Cheers,
Lara

[gmd3d]

Thanks Lara you have some great Ideas there do you mind in i steal them
I will continue to design what the systems may look like.....

does anyone have there own idea of the look and structure of each colony ..even as far as to it climate.
Caprica let us say is very Earth like perhaps a little smaller, better climate.

The picture I did is only one way it could look.. I will redesign it later as I have more time .. it was my first complete starsystem

[justjackrandom]

Interesting ideas, both Taranis and Lara.

Taranis, a question: If we are assuming 4 separate planetary systems (I use that phrase because the Colonials use “star system” synonymously with “galaxy”), how far apart are they? Any thoughts?

As for the culture of the Colonies and their associated languages, we have a few clues from the series:
1) The “standard” language has a great deal of influence from Greek, more so than English does. It also makes use of Latin.
2) Gemonese is Latin.
3) There is a Germanic influence (beyond being the root of English).

If the Colonials are speaking “Colonial Standard”, then it is a blend of languages much like English is, owing more perhaps to Caprican (Greek) than English does to Greek. Based on your description of the Colonies, maybe Sagittaran is Germanic at its root.

Great stuff...

JJR

[gmd3d]

justjackrandom those are the very question i would like to work out ...

our nearest star is alpha centaury (or something like that) 4 lightyears or so
but i am looking into binary systems to get ideas of distances..

[gmd3d]

If the Colonials are speaking “Colonial Standard”, then it is a blend of languages much like English is, owing more perhaps to Caprican (Greek) than English does to Greek. Based on your description of the Colonies, maybe Sagittaran is Germanic at its root.

I like that idea ALOT ,,, I want to really explore the possibiltys of the colonial planets

I got these and was wondering if some could have meaning other than ship maybe there home planets?

[Lara]

Originally Posted by justjackrandom

Interesting ideas, both Taranis and Lara.

As for the culture of the Colonies and their associated languages, we have a few clues from the series:
1) The “standard” language has a great deal of influence from Greek, more so than English does. It also makes use of Latin.
2) Gemonese is Latin.
3) There is a Germanic influence (beyond being the root of English).

If the Colonials are speaking “Colonial Standard”, then it is a blend of languages much like English is, owing more perhaps to Caprican (Greek) than English does to Greek. Based on your description of the Colonies, maybe Sagittaran is Germanic at its root.

Great stuff...

JJR

So much food for thought!!

Re language,
i always assumed the dominant language we were hearing was Caprican, by virtue of what we know about the origins of the main characters, and that gemonese was quickly pointed out as being different.
Thus, the command language of the Galactica would be Caprican, as its home colony was Caprica.
Other battlestars may have had other primary languages, but just as 'english' in its many forms now dominates earth in matters technological (I believe its the official language for international flight???) and even places like Japan place high value on english as a second language, something common in Europe and Scandanavia for decades, it might not be a stretch to assume that a technologically advanced colony, perhaps the first to rediscover interstellar flight, had their language adopted widely.

However, languages would blend once the fleet assembled, and the longer they are pushed together the faster the decay on the culture. Fleet standard would be a mishmash of the dominent languages, and loss of cultural identity would be a rich source of debate an discontent.

Perhaps there are high and low forms of each language. you would expect Adama to know the old and high stuff. he had no problems with the scripts in the tombs, and obviously was well read in all the old texts.
There would be every liklihood many cultural or linguistic groups didn't make it with enough representation to remain viable.

We saw asian faces on the council.. Where do the asian cultures and languages fit into the parallels?
Perhaps we can expect to hear Khmer, or the ancient forms of chinese, or indian..
, or even South American ancient languages?
There is 12 colonies, so there is plenty of scope.
if the systems became home to related tribes, then the language and cultural groups could be grouped..

And what would Atlantian be related to?

We need a linguist to give us some basics...


Cheers,
Lara

[justjackrandom]

Originally Posted by Lara

However, languages would blend once the fleet assembled, and the longer they are pushed together the faster the decay on the culture. Fleet standard would be a mishmash of the dominent languages, and loss of cultural identity would be a rich source of debate an discontent.

I think you would have had such a blend long before the advent of the Fleet. This is a people that has been involved in an interstellar war for a 1000 years.
While I can see most of the worlds maintaining a cultural identity, I would expect it to be more like the diversity of such cities as New York or Boston, rather than the difference between France and Germany.

--2p

JJR

Since only the Galactica was capable of light speed in TOS I doubt they would have much of a connected society unless they are in one star system or very close star systems that orbit a very close center of gravity. Even a system separated by as little as one light year would probably discourage most trade and cultural similarity if only the most powerful warships moved at or beyond light speed. With no FTL jumps in TOS I am left thinking they all inhabit one star system. It may be a binary or trinary star system but only one makes sense as described in TOS unless you throw science out the window.

[justjackrandom]

Originally Posted by antelope526

Since only the Galactica was capable of light speed in TOS I doubt they would have much of a connected society unless they are in one star system or very close star systems that orbit a very close center of gravity. Even a system separated by as little as one light year would probably discourage most trade and cultural similarity if only the most powerful warships moved at or beyond light speed. With no FTL jumps in TOS I am left thinking they all inhabit one star system. It may be a binary or trinary star system but only one makes sense as described in TOS unless you throw science out the window.

Ah...but you are assuming that Galactica milieu space is like our space, and that their interaction is limited to what we know today about interacting with space. But we know that can't be the case.

Interplanetary travel in a planetary system can be handled very readily at fractions of C, but outside the system another mechanism is needed. Even if traveling at C (or beyond, in the case of the Starchaser), it would take forever to get anywhere in a stellar group, let alone to hop galaxies, which we know the Colonials are capable of, and the Cylons do as a matter of course. Thus, either there is an artificial mechanism at work, or the nature of space is different in that milieu than we would expect, or a combination of both (I prefer the latter).

TOS does not mention an FTL drive. Yet we know they travel tremendous distances with relative ease. Thus their “FTL” drive must be a part of their normal engines. Still, if limited to 'C', then how can they move around a planetary system, let alone between planetary systems and galaxies, in an expedient fashion?

1) Galactica engines generate an Alcubierre drive field. This allows rapid acceleration without acceleration issues, and sets a “top speed” based on power expenditure.
2) Space, particularly between the stars, is much more exotic than we generally accept today, made up of “seas”, “channels”, and “rivers” of dark energy. One can navigate these “waterways”, and by manipulating the drive field, can create a true acceleration many times C without actually changing the power expenditure. In other words, we can still putt along at factor 2 (.2C), but actually be traveling at 100C.

This solves a number of issues in TOS.

JJR

Originally Posted by justjackrandom

TOS does not mention an FTL drive. Yet we know they travel tremendous distances with relative ease. Thus their “FTL” drive must be a part of their normal engines. Still, if limited to 'C', then how can they move around a planetary system, let alone between planetary systems and galaxies, in an expedient fashion?

TOS does mention light speed on one occasion, I believe during the Terra arc (?). Adama tells the crew to bring the Galactica "up to light speed". Other than spacecraft I saw no sign of any other transport means in the show. I simply take TOS at face value:

The distances traveled do not make sense based on the technology they possessed in the show. TOS, based on their technology would have never covered more than 1 light years distance.

I simply ignore the entire issue as poor science writing. They had no faster than light capability and they did travel extreme distances anyway.

As a result I don't think you can extrapolate anything in TOS scientifically to explain their planetary system. It was one star system because Larson said it was. All the planets had a breathable atmosphere and could sustain life because that is the only way to explain the entire arc ship concept. These things don't fit science but it is the story.

Science fiction can be fictional science and still be very good as we see in TOS. We don't need to do backflips to explain the unexplainable.

[Fragmentary]

Originally Posted by antelope526

I simply ignore the entire issue as poor science writing. They had no faster than light capability and they did travel extreme distances anyway.

As a result I don't think you can extrapolate anything in TOS scientifically to explain their planetary system. It was one star system because Larson said it was. All the planets had a breathable atmosphere and could sustain life because that is the only way to explain the entire arc ship concept. These things don't fit science but it is the story.

If you aren't going to take their bad science seriously, and no one should, then why are you taking the random, and often contradictory, use of star system, solar system and galaxy seriously?

The writers just used terms that would "sound" science techy without much adherence to their actually meaning. I think you're right not to try to sort them out too much. And because of that, shouldn't take at face value that all of the colonies were in one star system.

[justjackrandom]

Originally Posted by antelope526

The distances traveled do not make sense based on the technology they possessed in the show. TOS, based on their technology would have never covered more than 1 light years distance.

I simply ignore the entire issue as poor science writing. They had no faster than light capability and they did travel extreme distances anyway.

I disagree. I will say that some of the writing and (particularly) direction choices are "bad" science, but if you change your view of the universe, much of it starts to come together in a rather interesting fashion...almost as if it was actually planned that way.

You say that “The distances traveled do not make sense based on the technology they possessed in the show”. My question to you is: What technology is that?

There is an incredibly wide spectrum of tech levels demonstrated in the show. At the high end we see variable pressure energy fields, mastery of gravity (which is huge), mastery of light, mastery of plasmas, and mastery of some other form of FTL particle/wave (they do have interstellar communications that seem to be in real-time). At the low end we see CRT-style displays, analogue gauges, LED digital readouts, analogue recording devices, wired communications, and riveted construction techniques.

Why the disparity? The real answer is that the producers wanted a certain “look” for the show, but also wanted to use certain existing technologies to make everything look “high-tech” for the late 70’s.

In dramatic terms, however, this can be explained in another way that makes perfect sense: If you are involved in an interstellar war, particularly one that has lasted for 1000 years, it is logical to build to the LOWEST possible tech level to get the job done. This makes supply and repairs on distant worlds much easier. This also explains why certain vessels (Rising Star, for instance) look a bit more “high-tech” than the Galactica. They are civilian ships that aren’t necessarily constrained by such logic.

The universe is a very odd place, one we actually know very little about (What is dark matter? What is dark energy? They make up upwards of 90% of the universe, and we know almost nothing about them). If you make the assumption that the universe the Colonial’s know is very different from the one we know, then it becomes easier to look for answers about how things happen in the Galactica milieu.

Just some thoughts...

JJR

Originally Posted by justjackrandom

You say that “The distances traveled do not make sense based on the technology they possessed in the show”. My question to you is: What technology is that?

No ship in the rag tag fleet was capable of light speed. With that being said TOS could have never taken place beyond the original star system.

[justjackrandom]

Originally Posted by antelope526

No ship in the rag tag fleet was capable of light speed. With that being said TOS could have never taken place beyond the original star system.

Again, however, you are assuming things based on our current understanding of the universe and an incomplete understanding of Colonial science. True we are piling assumptions on top of assumptions, but that is acceptable in a fictional milieu. If you assume that it is a given that no ships in the fleet travel faster than C (information from the show) and that that is a true statement, then the statement that these ships make interplanetary and intergalactic journeys (information from the show) is also a true statement. It is our current paradigm of the universe that keeps us from reconciling these two apparently contradictory statements. I suggest that in the Galactica milieu, our paradigm is incorrect, or at least grossly incomplete. Instead of trying to figure out how Galactica “science” fits (or fails to fit) into our view of the universe, we should instead be looking at what we know of their science and technology, and what it tells us about the nature of their universe.

-JJR

[Lara]

Originally Posted by antelope526

No ship in the rag tag fleet was capable of light speed. With that being said TOS could have never taken place beyond the original star system.

Yet clearly they ARE travelling great distances by the plotlines.

Poppa Larson left us no credible technical explaination for this.

Either everyone had a way of travelling at or near light speed (freighter and cylons included) or no one had it

BUT

If no one had it, they wouldn't have got out of their own back yard, and to Carillon, let alone to Kobol or beyond.

Instead we have to accept that there are HUGE holes in the tech cred of the base story line, but it is a good intellectual exercise to consider, debate, and dodge them.

I like JJR's take on it with the space currents. It was a good peice of speculative fiction and a masterful use of the assumption: going just beyond our own limits of knowledge without resorting to 'magic'

Cheers,
Lara

[repcisg]

I think we might want to take a look at H.G. Well’s 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, written in the late 19th century. At the time he penned the original manuscript most ships were powered by sails, a few carried auxiliary steam engines. Yet he reasoned, if one could find a way to boil water without burning coal, you might be able to build a closed system steam engine. With this a true submarine would be possible. At that time no one had ever heard of nuclear power.

The basic assumption made by Wells, was made by Larson, Roddenberry and virtually every Sci-fi writer that has put pen to paper or stroked a keyboard.

Who is to say in the next century an efficient method of moving people and cargoes between the stars won’t be found.

[repcisg]

A little food for thought:

In current theoretical Physics circles the study of cosmic strings has advanced quite a bit. It is now being postulated that these strings of super dense matter may be quite common. And being supper dense would stretch local space. In stretching space the apparent speed of light would change(increase). A ship traveling parallel to a string would appear to be traveling faster than light to an outside observer, while to those on board all would be normal. In fact the closer you approach the string the faster you would go. Pull away from it and you slow down. To use cosmic strings as a transportation system you would only need engines powerful enough to get you to a string in a reasonable amount of time and to pull you away from the string when you neared your destination.

The TOS fleet could simply be moving from string to string, covering vast distances. Only a military ship such as the Galactica would need to be able to generate high “C” numbers away from a string. For example at Terra.

Cosmic Strings would explain much about the colonial universe, an explanation not available to Larson when he sat down to write the Pilot.

[justjackrandom]

Originally Posted by Lara

I like JJR's take on it with the space currents. It was a good peice of speculative fiction and a masterful use of the assumption: going just beyond our own limits of knowledge without resorting to 'magic'

(blush) Thanks.



JJR

[justjackrandom]

Originally Posted by repcisg

Cosmic Strings would explain much about the colonial universe, an explanation not available to Larson when he sat down to write the Pilot.

A man after my own heart....



--JJR

[gmd3d]

Originally Posted by repcisg

I think we might want to take a look at H.G. Well’s 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, written in the late 19th century. At the time he penned the original manuscript most ships were powered by sails, a few carried auxiliary steam engines. Yet he reasoned, if one could find a way to boil water without burning coal, you might be able to build a closed system steam engine. With this a true submarine would be possible. At that time no one had ever heard of nuclear power.

repcisg the "20:000 leauges under the sea" was writen by Jules Verne and not by H.G Wells who penned The Time Machine .. just thought I would tell you.



Note: Edited to add closing 'quote' tag.
BST

[SpyOne]

I think the following is fairly obvious from watching the show:

1) all of the vessels in the "ragtag fleet" are capable of a speed that lets them visit multiple solar systems (and maybe even galaxies) in a matter of weeks or months.
2) Galactica is capable of travelling much faster than the other ships of the fleet.
3) Galactica has a super-fast speed called "Lightspeed" that before the Battle of Cimtar had not been used in a very long time, and that apparently burns a great deal of fuel (see "Living Legend").

4) Given that the speeds reached in 1 are probably FTL, "Lightspeed" must not mean travel at 1*c.

This leaves the question of how far, both in lightyears and more importantly in time, it is between Colonies.



Back to the map, I have a question about the possable measurement of distance.
A very long time ago, I took Geometry. I faintly recall from that something about "mapping functions", and that there are two different ways to graph a mathmatical function. One of those was on "graph paper", which I think we all know is covered with little squares. Most of the maps we are used to use this principal. The other, however, used special paper with a bunch of concentric circles and rays spreading out from the center of the page.
Now imagine that we are going to graph "cosine X" for posative integers.
On normal graph paper, we just number the bottom of the page with 1, 2, 3, etc. Then we grab a scientific calculator, put in "1", press the "cosine" button, and put a dot above the "1" on our graph in the spot that coincides with the value we just got. (0.9998 if you care.)
BUT WAIT! You may have noticed that your scientific calculator has some special modes. Instead of using "degrees" as we did above, you can set it to give the answer in "radians".
I have no idea what that means anymore, but IIRC that is what you use if plotting on the funky graph paper.

And this is relevant because: the grids behind the maps look like the funky paper. So, I'm thinking that what we're seeing might be somehow convertable into a more standard graph of boxes with an X, Y, and Z axis.
I just have no clear memory on how to do that anymore.

Does anyone out there have a clue about this?

[gmd3d]

spyone wrote:

Does anyone out there have a clue about this?

Nope??? you lost me after "mapping functions", But I get what you are talking about. This is what I get for missing Geometry.

[justjackrandom]

Originally Posted by SpyOne

4) Given that the speeds reached in 1 are probably FTL, "Lightspeed" must not mean travel at 1*c.

This leaves the question of how far, both in lightyears and more importantly in time, it is between Colonies.

Easy answer is: no one knows. It was never made clear in the series. We can speculate, but that's about it.

Originally Posted by SpyOne

And this is relevant because: the grids behind the maps look like the funky paper. So, I'm thinking that what we're seeing might be somehow convertable into a more standard graph of boxes with an X, Y, and Z axis.
I just have no clear memory on how to do that anymore.

Does anyone out there have a clue about this?

I am about where you are in this. I don't have the skills to really figure it out, but I do assume that what we are looking at it a two-dimensional representation of three-dimensional space.

--JJR

[Charybdis]

This is an old thread that is fantastic to think about! I wanted to ask a question for those who have studied the Colonial star map...

how many 'inner' planets are there and how many 'outer' planets are there? We do know from the show itself, that Caprica, Virgon and Sagitara are inner planets, but are they the only ones?

Can the star map tell us? What do you all say?