BG-08: The Living Legend

[shiningstar]

I really loved this episode. I think the reason WHY Cain did believe that the
CYLON empire WOULD FAIL ...............is because he DID NOT SEE the 'fall'
of the COLONIES. Being in deep space and Maintaining radio silence it would
make sense that coming upon Gamoray ............. and constantly doing raids right
under the cylon's noses .........he would become over confident in his abilities to
destroy the CYLON empire. Since the base stars weren't bothering him ......and since
he didn't have 243 civilian ships to protect. He had a free reign and was free to do
as he wished as far as battling the cylons went.

Commander Caine was a fleet commander who only two years earlier had his entire fleet destroyed except for the Pegasus. He would be under the illusion the home worlds were still at war prior to meeting the Galactica and yet he was incapable of returning because of cylon defenses. He should be under no illusion of the situation. More than likely the number of cylon Basestars must be huge even compared to the colonial fleet destroyed at "Saga of A Star World". We are never told how big the entire cylon fleet was but prior to "Saga of A Star World" it was more than enough to at a minmum fight the colonials to a draw even when they were in full war mode. Everything we see in TOS points to the fact that the colonials were slowly losing the war even prior to the start of TOS.

[shiningstar]

Antelope you said yourself that Cain was based on General Patton.
Since General Patton didn't believe in retreating and had a big ego
to match ...........why should Cain ...........since Cain's ego was about
the same size...............

That's the one thought I had for Caine to explain his actions. I think he may have enjoyed his two yahrn personal war against the cylons and did not enjoy being under the control of the "government" again. Now that Sheba was safely aboard the Galactica with the rest of the fleet Caine preferred to go down in a blaze of glory rather than spend the rest of his life fleeing. That makes sense for his final battle but does not explain his willingness to send the entire human population down in a blaze of glory as his original plans would have ultimately led to. It's great television even if it doesn't make total sense!

[braxiss]

if cain is based on patton than all you have to know is that patton would not accept defeat, and he always beleived that no matter how much the odds were agaist him there was always a path to victory. knowing this shows us that cain did not attack three basestars as a suicide mission because he could't handle being under adama's authority, he did to protect the fleet, and he went in knowing there was always hope of survival.

[amberstar]

Originally Posted by braxiss

if cain is based on patton than all you have to know is that patton would not accept defeat, and he always beleived that no matter how much the odds were agaist him there was always a path to victory. knowing this shows us that cain did not attack three basestars as a suicide mission because he could't handle being under adama's authority, he did to protect the fleet, and he went in knowing there was always hope of survival.

I agree with you Braxiss, He did go in knowing there was hope of survival.
Even Adama guessed that at the last centon Cain must have turned out into deep space again. I always thought we would see Cain return just when it looked darkest for the fleet.

Amber

I don't have the exact quote and maybe some can provide it but Commander Caine fully anticipated not surviving the final battle. Did he go out in a blaze of glory? We aren't for sure. Did Commander Caine have an ego? He sure did, but Adama knew what Caine was doing was militarily needed. The quote I am referring to went something like:

Caine to Adama: "Don't make my LAST battle an act of mutiny. Give me your blessing."

That is not the words of a man who anticipated survival.

There are also quotes by Sheba and Cassie that explain that Commander Caine did not anticipate survival. He even transfered all vipers and non-essential personnel to the Galactica.

If you assume Count Iblis in the later episodes was not lying to Sheba about her seeing her father again and Count Iblis planned on taking her soul then you are also left with the conclusion the only way a "dead" Sheba would see her father was if he also was already "dead".

Fans want the Pegasus to return and the door was left open for the writers, but realistically Commander Caine did not anticipate survival. With no vipers and short on personnel how long the Pegasus could have survived in reality is not very long.

As a fan however I expect to see the Pegasus again!

[shiningstar]

It's true that Cain didn't "HAVE" any Viper Pilots.

However with Starbuck and Apollo coming up and
"Plowing the Field" and taking out the lazers on the
basestars ...........THAT gave Cain a chance that
he wouldn't have had otherwise.

In otherwords he did order the pilots to the galactica.
But Starbuck and Apollo ............'disobeyed' orders
'from a man who isn't obeying orders himself'.

Thereby giving him the chance 'he didn't think he had'.

[amberstar]

Yes Shiningstar, that may just have been what turned the tables in favor of Cain!

Amber

[shiningstar]

TY Amberstar For making my 'point' for me

Regardless of what may have been the original intent of the writers, I am confident that the Pegasus is still out there. She was badly damaged in the fight with the base stars, but she survived, has completed repairs, and is again engaged behind enemy lines causing as much disruption as possible. She will rejoin the Galactica some day.

I hope Moore doesn't destroy her. We're down far enough as it is. I would rather not see half of our remaining military assets thrown away.

[launchcruiser7]

cain was goining to survive becuse he only took on twe basestar baltars ship was falling back the raders casing him were olow on fuel hand had only one baseship to land on baltars he blowed up realy good two basestars with missiles allbattlestar had them but adama wanted to save his cause they could not make more cain fried his to make sure baltar could not reload and come after the fleet with three baseships for sagans sake felercarb

Until I saw the extra on the DVD, I had always thought that when Apollo and Starbuck didn't want Sheba to look into the wreckage, it was her father, Cain that they saw. I had no idea it was cloven hoves as Glen said. The lines of "something as big as a battlestar crashed here" or similar suggested it was the Pegasus that crashed, at least to me. So if it was cloven hoves they saw and Iblis is the Devil, did the hoves belong to one of his "minions" then?

[Eric Paddon]

Originally Posted by shiningstar

It's true that Cain didn't "HAVE" any Viper Pilots.

I've never bought this argument, nor have I ever bought the argument that Cain sent all his vipers to the Galactica. I think his approach is that normal military strategy dictates that when warships go at each other in a "toe to toe slugging match" then Vipers are not used because they only run the risk of being destroyed in the crossfire between a basestar and a battlestar.

Thus, to me Cain's pilots chose to stay aboard the Pegasus where they were needed. Notice that when Starbuck made his offer to stay behinnd, it wasn't in the context of willing to lead vipers into battle, but "to see this through with him."

Plus, we have to remember Sheba's comment in WOTG about Bojay being "all that I've got left". I don't think she would have made this remark if other Pegasus pilots she knew and flew with transferred over as well.

So wherever the Pegasus is after the events of LL, she still has most of her Vipers and nearly all of her pilots from my standpoint.

[kitty]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

I've never bought this argument, nor have I ever bought the argument that Cain sent all his vipers to the Galactica. I think his approach is that normal military strategy dictates that when warships go at each other in a "toe to toe slugging match" then Vipers are not used because they only run the risk of being destroyed in the crossfire between a basestar and a battlestar.

Thus, to me Cain's pilots chose to stay aboard the Pegasus where they were needed. Notice that when Starbuck made his offer to stay behinnd, it wasn't in the context of willing to lead vipers into battle, but "to see this through with him."

Plus, we have to remember Sheba's comment in WOTG about Bojay being "all that I've got left". I don't think she would have made this remark if other Pegasus pilots she knew and flew with transferred over as well.

So wherever the Pegasus is after the events of LL, she still has most of her Vipers and nearly all of her pilots from my standpoint.

I aggree with you there, Eric.
I believe he would have kept some vipers back , so he could continue his guerilla type war with the cyclons.

Caine: paraphase, "Adama don't make my LAST battle an act of mutiny. Give me your blessing."

The fans want the Pegasus to survive and the writers wrote in a doubt at the end so they could use it later if they wanted. Nothing actually said in the episode however leads you to believe Caine anticipated anything other than death.

As a fan however...I know we will see her again.

[Eric Paddon]

Originally Posted by antelope526

Nothing actually said in the episode however leads you to believe Caine anticipated anything other than death. .

True, but I think what might have happened there was Cain wanting to guard against the prospect of dying with shame on his record if he in effect were defying an official order. Cain's sense of honor has to be very high to regard that point as important.

I think most fans who see the Pegasus surviving would argue that Cain made a sudden jump to light speed to get out of the area after he destroyed the lead two baseships, and this would only have been the result of a last micron change of plans in his mind that perhaps even he never anticipated when he made that final communication to Adama.

[Senmut]

My take, for what it's worth, is that yes, Cain expected to die in battle with the BaseShips. I suspect he intended to destroy the two we saw go up, and then hit Baltar. he at least considered the possibility that he might survive the two, and make it to Balta's location. All his conversation with Tolan indicates that his main goal was Baltar's ship, and the other two were mere icing on the cake. I think what happened was that he did survive, made a short jump, but lost Baltar, who had skeedaddled. After that, alone and no doubt damaged, we know nothing else.

[launchcruiser7]

Originally Posted by antelope526

I don't have the exact quote and maybe some can provide it but Commander Caine fully anticipated not surviving the final battle. Did he go out in a blaze of glory? We aren't for sure. Did Commander Caine have an ego? He sure did, but Adama knew what Caine was doing was militarily needed. The quote I am referring to went something like:

Caine to Adama: "Don't make my LAST battle an act of mutiny. Give me your blessing."

That is not the words of a man who anticipated survival.

[launchcruiser7]

Originally Posted by antelope526

I don't have the exact quote and maybe some can provide it but Commander Caine fully anticipated not surviving the final battle. Did he go out in a blaze of glory? We aren't for sure. Did Commander Caine have an ego? He sure did, but Adama knew what Caine was doing was militarily needed. The quote I am referring to went something like:

Caine to Adama: "Don't make my LAST battle an act of mutiny. Give me your blessing."

That is not the words of a man who anticipated survival.

remember cain left his people that were hurt with the fighter wing heading to the fleet i think he had one or two sqrdns left a battlestar is a mile long and can support over 3oo ships like when cain went in on those baseships it was three to one 300 to 900 i think he sent all the ships he could to the galactica the ones that could fly any way i heard that they wanted<THE WRITERS> to desory the pegasus but abc did not wount death on family hour dont woorry that old war daggit is causin all kinds of havic with the tinheads >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>this is the launchcruiser hawkeye on outer fleet marker alpha needto launch fighters see you in the officers club back on the cerbeus have a cold one keepin it a family freindly web site one of the best what if shows of the bunch

Originally Posted by antelope526

The fans want the Pegasus to survive and the writers wrote in a doubt at the end so they could use it later if they wanted.

As a fan...I know we will see her again.

I agree. And I hope Moore doesn't go with the Highlander tag line "In the end, there can be only one." Myself, I want to see the Pegasus rejoin the RTFleet. And I want a third battlestar to be found. And when they get to the real earth, I want an future earth technology than can build a fourth, and a fifth, battlestar. I want to see the humans recover, grow strong, and win. But that's just me.

[amberstar]

Originally Posted by Thomasbombadil

I agree. And I hope Moore doesn't go with the Highlander tag line "In the end, there can be only one." Myself, I want to see the Pegasus rejoin the RTFleet. And I want a third battlestar to be found. And when they get to the real earth, I want an future earth technology than can build a fourth, and a fifth, battlestar. I want to see the humans recover, grow strong, and win. But that's just me.

Me too Thomas!

[Oscar]

The Pegasus was to return in the opening episode of second season, but according to the plot synopsis, it had been infiltated with Cylon replicants (with all the original humans onboard, including Cain, presumably dead). The Galactica then destroys the Pegasus in a pitched battle. Sheba is killed in a dogfight.

It's a ridiculous storyline, but sadly it's true. The synopsis is on the Cylon Alliance website.

[bsg1fan1975]

I believed after watching the episode that the Pegasus was badly damaged and slipped away to repair and regroup after the battle. I still think she is out there making trouble for the scrap heap rejects!

[Eric Paddon]

Despite what others have said about minimizing the importance of that memo regarding a second season and that AWFUL storyline of replicants and Sheba getting killed off, it's revelation shattered 25 years of cherished beliefs about what Galactica could have been like if it had continued and for me personally now made me happy it hadn't continued. We would have gotten the equivalent of a "Space 1999" second season, totally at variance with what had previously been established.

[Senmut]

It amazes me that Larson, after creating this wonderful universe, could turn around and ruin it so. Was he on drugs??? Or did the NitWerk Suits exert some kind of pressure?

[Eric Paddon]

Originally Posted by Senmut

It amazes me that Larson, after creating this wonderful universe, could turn around and ruin it so. Was he on drugs??? Or did the NitWerk Suits exert some kind of pressure?

Elminating half the supporting cast and putting other characters into those roles (like making Boomer the new Wilker) smacks heavily of cost-cutting pressure that Larson was being told to respond to if Galactica had continued.

[kingfish]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

I've never bought this argument, nor have I ever bought the argument that Cain sent all his vipers to the Galactica. I think his approach is that normal military strategy dictates that when warships go at each other in a "toe to toe slugging match" then Vipers are not used because they only run the risk of being destroyed in the crossfire between a basestar and a battlestar.

Thus, to me Cain's pilots chose to stay aboard the Pegasus where they were needed. Notice that when Starbuck made his offer to stay behinnd, it wasn't in the context of willing to lead vipers into battle, but "to see this through with him."

Plus, we have to remember Sheba's comment in WOTG about Bojay being "all that I've got left". I don't think she would have made this remark if other Pegasus pilots she knew and flew with transferred over as well.

So wherever the Pegasus is after the events of LL, she still has most of her Vipers and nearly all of her pilots from my standpoint.

IMHO a Battlestar has 4 Viper squadrons. Cain may have sent Silver Spar with Sheba and kept Bronze, Gold, and Copper in reserve.

Does everybody agree that the Pegasus has got to come back?