Was Apollo a goody-two-shoes to the extreme?

[Apolloisall]

My biggest Galactica complaint about my friends is that they'd complain that Apollo was a flawless good guy, incapable of being wrong or driven by dark thoughts.
To them, I'd say "You golmongers! I LIKE him that way!!!"
Is a really good guy so hard to swallow?
Was he really TOO good?

Just wondering what others thought about this...

[Dawg]

Well, it's my view that they really only had the time to set the archetypes of the main characters. Future Galactica would have added more complexity to the characters, levels that they only began to explore in the latter episodes.

Apollo was the straight-arrow character, the "hero." Starbuck was the rogue with the heart of gold - complains all the time but always steps up and does the right thing. These were the core traits that would have been built on.

BTW - you misuse the word "frack." It is spelled with a CK at the end, and it does not mean what you infer it to mean - that famous four-letter Anglo-Saxon word that begins and ends with the same two letters.

Someone perverted "frack" to be interchangeable with that certain Anglo-Saxon word and has pretty much ruined it for the rest of us.

I am
Dawg

[Lara]

I wouldn't call him flawless: perhaps by modern expectations of every hero being flawed and thoroughly unlikeable (a trend I think will correct a bit to something that is complex and interesting but engaging, ie Current Doctor Who)
Partly it was a result of the TV conventions of the time. Character complexity was improving and I believe there was enough shade in Apollo that he could have evolved.
He was very driven in SAGA. It was Serina and Boxey that stopped him getting bitter and self destructive over the death of his brother, but he was hiding in duty adn being self destructive. It didn't help the terminal illness subplot was cut after principle filming, so a lot of what we see between Apollo and Serina is not as it might have been.
later he isn't the impeccable hero all the time in his treatment of Sheba: he swings between encouragement and rivalry. Again it is coloured by TV sensibility of the time.

Cheers,
Lara

[Punisher454]

I like Apollo as being a little "over the top". Yes his character was a bit oversimplified and obviously this was a product of the times when it was made. But I DONT believe all characters need to be balanced with or even overburdened with character flaws. Not all real life people are, most maybe yes, but there are some rare people that really do walk the walk and talk the talk without a ton of skeletons or character flaws hidden under the surface.

I think a modern more realistic remake would have the characters a bit more multi-faceted, but I like Apollo as a strong intelligent WISE leader, with a very strong sense of morality.

[peter noble]

Apollo is pretty overbearing in Saga – the result of his grief over leaving Zac behind to ultimately die.

Later, he makes the mistake of taking the Paradeen shuttle out of its programmed flightpath, a mistake he later admits to.

In BG's pseudo-religious analogy, Apollo is the Christ character. He is the one who doesn't give in to the temptations of the Devil (Iblis) and is killed saving someone who has fallen into sin (Sheba). He later comes back from the dead aboard the Lightship.

[Apolloisall]

Originally Posted by Punisher454

I DONT believe all characters need to be balanced with or even overburdened with character flaws.

THANK YOU!

[Charybdis]

Over the yahrens, I have come to like Apollo for being exactly like he is! As for being "moral," you can't be 'too moral.' I believe you either are or you are not based upon faith in something (religion, natural law, etc.)

Once you deviate from being "moral" then you are immoral. And there's way too much of that!!

[Apolloisall]

Originally Posted by Charybdis

Over the yahrens, I have come to like Apollo for being exactly like he is!

Oh Chary, back in '78 (yeah, I go back that far, by the Lords of Kobol!) as the series progressed, I kept hearing "Yeah, he's YOU! Always has to be right; always has to be 'good'!"
As if that was a bad thing...

[BST]

Originally Posted by Punisher454

I like Apollo as being a little "over the top". Yes his character was a bit oversimplified and obviously this was a product of the times when it was made.

I think a modern more realistic remake would have the characters a bit more multi-faceted, but I like Apollo as a strong intelligent WISE leader, with a very strong sense of morality.

I actually don't think that Apollo was a very "simple" character at all. Consider the events from the beginning of Saga through, at least, LPOTG. He is losing people that he cares about. First his mother and brother, next is his wife.

Is it any wonder that he withdraws back into himself? He's probably fearful of caring for someone else.

That, along with being the son of the last surviving member of the original Quorum, who also happens to be commander of the last battlestar, likely drives him to stay on the straight and narrow.

[gmd3d]

He had his flaws, like most of use they are small ones some where already mentioned as above.

but he endeavored to be his best, as a leader of men and women he had to be like a paragon. in front of them. Starbuck
would see more than that along with Boomer.

while it was never fully seen if the episodes we do have. I think Apollo would start to show more of his fears and perhaps despair.

the long retreat,
His Son,
Serena, relationship or no
Adama, I think they would be begun to clash on some issues

some of the things that would have shown his flaws more in time.

perhaps ???

[WarMachine]

I think it's pretty clear that, Christ references aside, Apollo does indeed bear a striking resemblance to both Dr. Who as well as to Malcolm Reynolds, for the Firefly fans out there -- he really wants to be a nice guy...really...but events and entities conspire (sometimes consciously, sometimes not) to force him into doing the anti-social things that he is very, very good at...If he comes across as mildly overbearing, I would call that 'compensating', not 'character flaw'.....

[gmd3d]

I have never ever given that association between Christ and Apollo. in any form. this is the first time I have ever seen it mentioned at all.

for me he is a Captain to his men, most leaders have a sense of detachment from those he leads. common enough in most leaders
in combat seen time and time again in film

its seen in many form of literature.


I agree with BSTs view and thats it ,

he is a wounded man
he care so he feels it more
he drive himself hardest

[Apolloisall]

Originally Posted by Taranis

I have never ever given that association between Christ and Apollo. in any form. this is the first time I have ever seen it mentioned at all.

I remember back in the day my goofy friends yelling "Oh, now he gave his life for Sheba! And he was resurrected!!They're doing the 'Christ' thing!"
I was like, "You guys are reading a LITTLE to much into a fun space opera..."

[gmd3d]

I have forgotten that episode hmmm.

[Benedict]

Originally Posted by Taranis

I have forgotten that episode hmmm.

War of the Gods (II), for when Apollo's resurrected.

Must say I love the music for that scene and how it all looks.

[gmd3d]

its been a long while since I watched BSG.

[Orin]

Originally Posted by WarMachine

I think it's pretty clear that, Christ references aside, Apollo does indeed bear a striking resemblance to both Dr. Who as well as to Malcolm Reynolds, for the Firefly fans out there -- he really wants to be a nice guy...really...but events and entities conspire (sometimes consciously, sometimes not) to force him into doing the anti-social things that he is very, very good at...If he comes across as mildly overbearing, I would call that 'compensating', not 'character flaw'.....

I think the Malcom Reynolds comparison would be more apt for Starbuck.I do see Apollo as a very moral man,but he's the hero of the show,so what's wrong with that?

[gmd3d]

Originally Posted by Orin

I think the Malcom Reynolds comparison would be more apt for Starbuck.I do see Apollo as a very moral man,but he's the hero of the show,so what's wrong with that?

Nothing. in my thinking we need more heroes like that now more than ever.. when men are men and women are women.

both can be brave and just as scared.

I like to think that all of us here would do the right thing if faced with a problem...a good guy or girl .

I think that Apollo was flawed.
but he was human
Adama was his father and a roll model. I could see a young Apollo growing up looking at the position of his father and living up to that ideal.

I know I try to do the right things in my life but been human and flawed I mess up.....

when I was younger I wanted to be Starbuck, but character wise I think I would be more like Apollo. Apollo cared and people who care suffer and feel the pain of loss etc

Starbuck who would also care but buries pain deeply in him self and says he does not care.... but you know he does

But I think Apollo who stands up to his father when he thinks he is wrong is no goody two shoes or boots. he has just had responsibility on his shoulders and thats what makes you.

well that is what I think

[Benedict]

Heck, I still wish I could be Starbuck. Maybe Starbuck in "Experiment in Terra" where he's a bit more Apollo-like.

I can't add much to all that above. As a kid I wasn't too fond of Apollo because he seemed a goody goody but now I quite appreciate him. Starbuck has the freedom almost of being an orphan. He's got no father to idolise, no siblings to inspire (as I think Zac was of Apollo), no siblings to look after whereas Apollo has all that: responsibility, idolising/looking up to Adama, all that's expected of him then Zac and Athena.

Well, I guess I did have something to add after all.

[gmd3d]

that is the way I see it.

[borjis]

I always thought he was a dudley-do-right, but also a very passionate character at times with the courage to stand up to anything (Count Iblis).

[Jubal]

Originally Posted by Apolloisall

I remember back in the day my goofy friends yelling "Oh, now he gave his life for Sheba! And he was resurrected!!They're doing the 'Christ' thing!"
I was like, "You guys are reading a LITTLE to much into a fun space opera..."

You know, I have so gotten used to (as a Christian) having the aspect of a hero being willing to lay his or her life down for someone that I really didn't think of it. For one Apollo is not Christ. Secondly, just thought it was cool that he risked his life for a friend, and then was lucky enough (thanks to those crystal/light people) to bring him back.

As for Apollo, you know strangely enough, I think there are "flaws" enough in being the straight and narrow hero.

Apollo needed Starbuck to balance him out for one.
He was broken with the loss of his wife.
He had to raise a child, alone.
Sometimes Apollo would cripple his own goals by his own self-righteousness.
And in the end, Athena was right, with the loss of his wife, he did kinda have a death wish.
There were times he struggled with his own confidence, hesitant till he was sure what he was going to do next was right.
And there were times like with his brother, where he bore amazing guilt.

All of this only made Apollo more interesting to me, and inspiring, when h would stand up and act on what he believed in.

[Apolloisall]

Wow Jubal, excellent character analysis!

[Jubal]

Originally Posted by Apolloisall

Wow Jubal, excellent character analysis!

LOL! Thanks! Yeh all my life I wanted to be wild and whimsical like Starbuck, but with all that goes on around me, I find myself slipping into Apollo mode.

[Senmut]

Yes, Apollo is the "straight arrow", to Starbuck's unrestrained soul. But he certainly is not perfect.
In LPOTG, Serina hints at his skepticism regarding Colonial religious beliefs. Given Colonial society's wearing their faith on their sleeves at times, this is "less than" perfect.
In TLW, he obviously seriously considers staying with Vela on Equellus, and even promises to return. I suspect he left something lese behind, but that's just me.
In TLL, he gets very close to insubordination with Cain, though hardly without reason.
In GFE, he at first willingly grabs the Terran shuttle, then flip-flops on the propriety of having done so. Not perfect.
His actions in THOG have been dissected enough, I think.

[Jubal]

Originally Posted by Senmut

Yes, Apollo is the "straight arrow", to Starbuck's unrestrained soul. But he certainly is not perfect.
In LPOTG, Serina hints at his skepticism regarding Colonial religious beliefs. Given Colonial society's wearing their faith on their sleeves at times, this is "less than" perfect.
In TLW, he obviously seriously considers staying with Vela on Equellus, and even promises to return. I suspect he left something lese behind, but that's just me.
In TLL, he gets very close to insubordination with Cain, though hardly without reason.
In GFE, he at first willingly grabs the Terran shuttle, then flip-flops on the propriety of having done so. Not perfect.
His actions in THOG have been dissected enough, I think.

All good points. This reminds me of the saying,

"If you look for the bad in someone, expecting to find it, you surely will" -Abraham Lincoln

I believe we have proved that Apollo is not 2 dimensional as a character (as some I believe feel about Apollo being too good) but that he is a character with depth and believable flaws. All have flaws. But Apollo searches to be better than the sum of his parts I believe overall.

[Apolloisall]

Originally Posted by Jubal

I believe we have proved that Apollo is not 2 dimensional as a character (as some I believe feel about Apollo being too good) but that he is a character with depth and believable flaws.

Yes, Jubal, I believe you have helped in his a great deal! Thanks!!!

[Benedict]

He (Apollo) would've made a very interesting commander of the Galactica. Similar yet different to Adama in all kinds of ways