6000? Fleet or crew????

[bionicbob]

Watched GREETINGS FROM EARTH today.

Apollo says to Michael "I hope you are happy. You have traded 6 lives for 6000!"

This is the first time I can recall a specific number being used in the series. However, is Apollo referencing the number of people aboard the Galactica or the entire Human population in the Fleet?

I would assume this would be the Galactica crew... but what are your thoughts on the matter? Has an actual number ever been quoted elsewhere in the series or even novelizations as to how many actual human survivors there are?

[Charybdis]

If you do a quick math about the 6000 figure it comes out way too small. The notion that there are 220 ships with 6,000 people total onboard comes out to 27 people per ship!!! I think it was just a bad script to have him say that number...

[gmd3d]

thats the problem with BSG .. much of the fact never add up .. much of this is due to the pressure of getting the shows out on time .. as it was rushed . one minute it was to be a mini series then a series and bask /forward again ....

600.000 + at least but Charybdis right on the money with just a bad script. perhaps you can view that a a possible crew complement of a Battlestar ??

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by Taranis

thats the problem with BSG .. much of the fact never add up .. much of this is due to the pressure of getting the shows out on time .. as it was rushed . one minute it was to be a mini series then a series and bask /forward again ....

600.000 + at least but Charybdis right on the money with just a bad script. perhaps you can view that a a possible crew complement of a Battlestar ??

That is about the complement of a US carrier at the time. I had forgotten that Apollo gave out a number like that.

Pure inference here. That may be a battlestar's complement, finally stated?

As always;

[Pegasus4]

Glen Larson's original novelization said it took thousands of people to run a battlestar. Ground crew, fire control, damage, medical staff, kitchen staff etc. would need to be a lot of people besides the bridge personnel and of course the pilots/warriors.

Sources I read have it longer than an Imperial Star Destroyer. Official sourcebooks say those ships have a crew each of 37,000 plus 9,000 stormtroopers, tie fighter pilots and infantry. I have no idea what Vadar's Super Star Destroyer had in numbers; just that it was 8 kms long which according to my little electric converter that came in handy in Japan a few months ago (mostly for temperature), that's 5 miles to us Americans

6,000? I remember that part. It always bothered me at the implication that only 500 people survived each Colony. It can't be an average of 27 per ship. They were packed in those ships like sardines. A bus holds alot more than that.

I never cared much for that episode. The 2 androids dance number is one of the 2 scenes I mentioned in another thread as a scene I refuse to watch ever again. However, Commandant Leiter seeing the Galactica at the end is one of my favorite moments in the series.

[Sarika]

Originally Posted by Pegasus4

Glen Larson's original novelization said it took thousands of people to run a battlestar. Ground crew, fire control, damage, medical staff, kitchen staff etc. would need to be a lot of people besides the bridge personnel and of course the pilots/warriors.

Sources I read have it longer than an Imperial Star Destroyer. Official sourcebooks say those ships have a crew each of 37,000 plus 9,000 stormtroopers, tie fighter pilots and infantry. I have no idea what Vadar's Super Star Destroyer had in numbers; just that it was 8 kms long which according to my little electric converter that came in handy in Japan a few months ago (mostly for temperature), that's 5 miles to us Americans

6,000? I remember that part. It always bothered me at the implication that only 500 people survived each Colony. It can't be an average of 27 per ship. They were packed in those ships like sardines. A bus holds alot more than that.

I never cared much for that episode. The 2 androids dance number is one of the 2 scenes I mentioned in another thread as a scene I refuse to watch ever again. However, Commandant Leiter seeing the Galactica at the end is one of my favorite moments in the series.

I 'll second your last words here, Pegasus4!...It was a classic part in that whole episode...very humerous when the Commandant realises he's really only travelling around in a tin bucket, compared to a Battlestar!!
His total ignorance that there may well be bigger things out there, outside his little domain... was deliciously squashed and run over by the Galactica, so deservingly!
I always wondered too, just what the number of people there were suppossed to be in the fleets (including the Galactica).
Certainly the numbers, as you fine mathematicians have added up, don't make a lot of logical sense. And I too would agree, due to the pressure of producing the shows in a rushed way, would not have helped to create a proper grounded estimate of realistic numbers in the fleets.

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by Pegasus4

Glen Larson's original novelization said it took thousands of people to run a battlestar. Ground crew, fire control, damage, medical staff, kitchen staff etc. would need to be a lot of people besides the bridge personnel and of course the pilots/warriors.

Sources I read have it longer than an Imperial Star Destroyer. Official sourcebooks say those ships have a crew each of 37,000 plus 9,000 stormtroopers, tie fighter pilots and infantry. I have no idea what Vadar's Super Star Destroyer had in numbers; just that it was 8 kms long which according to my little electric converter that came in handy in Japan a few months ago (mostly for temperature), that's 5 miles to us Americans

6,000? I remember that part. It always bothered me at the implication that only 500 people survived each Colony. It can't be an average of 27 per ship. They were packed in those ships like sardines. A bus holds alot more than that.

I never cared much for that episode. The 2 androids dance number is one of the 2 scenes I mentioned in another thread as a scene I refuse to watch ever again. However, Commandant Leiter seeing the Galactica at the end is one of my favorite moments in the series.

1. An ISD cheese wedge is 1600 meters long using Lucass' comments as the referent .^1
2. An Alligator is 1850 meters long, using the Larsen nautical mile benchmark comment.

3. Refer here;

http://www.colonialfleets.com/forums...ad.php?t=13415

We seem to have reached a range where an agreement was reached among us that a battlestar had a crew ranging in size between 2000 and 25000 personnel.

Lucass cheese wedge spacecraft give me heartburn. He knows as much about spacecraft as a



Example;



THAT was an insult to my intelligence, especially as this;



I could plausibly argue was a rocket fighter, then and now. (despite the apparent jet intakes.[magnetic particle traps using mini point diverters gathering the interstellar gas for MHD augmentation to the Tylium energiized stick iron rocket engines-a very advanced Bussard ramscoop. You would need such devices to prevent radiative particle sleeting of the pilot, as he or she accelerated to velocities greater than 0.01 c.])

4. To convert a Fahrenheit temperature into Celsius:

Tc = (5/9)*(Tf-32)

For example, to convert a Fahrenheit temperature of 98.6°F into degrees Celsius, first subtract 32 from the Fahrenheit temperature to get 66.6. Then you multiply 66.6 by five-ninths to get 37°C.

To convert a Celsius temperature into degrees Fahrenheit:

Tf = ((9/5)*Tc)+32

For example, to convert a Celsius temperature of 100 into degrees Fahrenheit, first multiply the Celsius temperature reading by nine-fifths to get 180. Then add 32 to 180 and get 212°F.

4. Using a Colonial Mover as a benchmark and the same battlestar method employed above in (3) I arrived at a passenger load between 500 and 3000 people.

200 Colonial Mover equivalents gave me a range between 100,000 and 600,000 people.
_________________________
^1 George Lucas totally trashed his Star Wars Universe with his prequels and his Director's repackagings of the originals. He forgot a cardinal rule of science fiction story telling. KISS and leave the minute details to the imagination. He did neither and proved thereby, that he has no concept of plotting story or how to tell it to the audience.
_________________________


As always;

rationally speaking the 6,000 figure MUST refer to the crew of the Battlestar, regardless of which size Battlestar you use. A crew of 6,000 is plausable, but an average of 27 people per ship including crew is just ludicrous when you stop and think about it.

[WarMachine]

Originally Posted by Damocles

_________________________
^1 George Lucas totally trashed his Star Wars Universe with his prequels and his Director's repackagings of the originals. He forgot a cardinal rule of science fiction story telling. KISS and leave the minute details to the imagination. He did neither and proved thereby, that he has no concept of plotting story or how to tell it to the audience.
_________________________

See? If he had just left it with A-, X- and Y-Wings, with TIE-precursors and one or two other ships, it would have been fine....Personally, the B-Wing and the bone-headed Jedi "clip-on hyperdrive" are insulting to my intelligence.

...And is it just me, or do GINO Cylon fighters bear a striking resemblance to TPM TradeFed Droid fighters?

Back on Track:

1. I would put the Gator's full compliment at c.5-7,000, even allowing for a high degree of automation. In the words of Larry Niven (N-Space), there's nothing like having several hundred self-programming battle computers running around when the shooting starts.

2. I think 100,000 is a high-end figure for the RTF's population. That averages out to c.455 ppl/ship, but you have to allow for several vessels that have very small permanent populations (the Agro-, Foundry-, Electronics-, and Livestock-Ships, among others).

3. OTOH, 600,000 works out to approx. 2725/ship. This is a reasonable figure, based on ship sizes, but I don't think that there are more than 3 agro ships in the RTF, and I have serious doubts that they can feed c.200,000 ppl each, even allowing for advanced technology.

For this reason, I generally assume 60-70,000 as a Fleet population.

[Damocles]

or



compared to that mythical spacecraft (the Goat) that was mentioned in passing;



Real reimagining there, huh?

______________________________________

To R/T fleet manning levels, I can argue anything from 50,000 Colonials to about six times that number easily, based on three to six agricultural ships, and postulating a foodbrick (CF Known Space Stories by Larry Niven) technology production base.

I admit six hundred thousand is really pushing it.

As always;

[Charybdis]

Ahhhh, I have to admit, I like those jedi starfighters. I"m buying the entire collection of the toys!!!!

[WarMachine]

Originally Posted by Damocles

Real reimagining there, huh?

Originally Posted by Damocles

To R/T fleet manning levels, I can argue anything from 50,000 Colonials to about six times that number easily, based on three to six agricultural ships, and postulating a foodbrick (CF Known Space Stories by Larry Niven) technology production base.

I admit six hundred thousand is really pushing it.

As always;

"Foodbrick technology"? Link?

Don't get me wrong: the RTF may actually have that technical capacity, but I don't think that they have that many in reality, seeing as most ships are rustbuckets, barely able to fly.

[Damocles]

You will see Louis Wu commenting on the inedibilitly of the field ration produced by his flycycle, which is a Pierson Puppeteer artifact-he calls it, the field ration, a foodbrick.

As always;

[Pegasus4]

I read the ISD was 37,000 crew long before those horrible special editions and contradictory prequels. I love how the originals are finally on DVD and I bought them even though I bought them last year on laser disc. And I liked the B-wing in RotJ.

btw Casino Royale is also a contradictory prequel for James Bond (M and Felix Leiter) but I don't care as Casino Royale is one of the best Bond movies ever and the first one in decades faithful to Ian Fleming's novels.

Back to BSG, the number per ship had to vary. I didn't see that many people on the electronics ship the Celestra and I doubt there were large crowds living on the other ships that weren't strictly passengers like the forge, textile and agro ships. I don't know if people working on the forge and agro ships lived there too. I know the workers on the Celestra did as they obviously didn't mingle with the population and were unaware the other ships didn't treat it's residents/workers like slaves.

[Damocles]

Originally Posted by Pegasus4

I read the ISD was 37,000 crew long before those horrible special editions and contradictory prequels. I love how the originals are finally on DVD and I bought them even though I bought them last year on laser disc. And I liked the B-wing in RotJ.

btw Casino Royale is also a contradictory prequel for James Bond (M and Felix Leiter) but I don't care as Casino Royale is one of the best Bond movies ever and the first one in decades faithful to Ian Fleming's novels.

Back to BSG, the number per ship had to vary. I didn't see that many people on the electronics ship the Celestra and I doubt there were large crowds living on the other ships that weren't strictly passengers like the forge, textile and agro ships. I don't know if people working on the forge and agro ships lived there too. I know the workers on the Celestra did as they obviously didn't mingle with the population and were unaware the other ships didn't treat it's residents/workers like slaves.

1. The Cheese Wedge and the Alligator are volumetrically similar.


2. The problem is, volume wise, the Cheese Wedge has to be 70/30: passenger space/fuel, engines, machinery; to be a functional spacecraft carrier, troop assault ship, battleship, with the alleged two brigades of landing troops and naval personnel aboard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Destroyer

3. That is technologically IMPOSSIBLE and engineeringly incompetent just from the life support burden alone. It speaks of a very imbecilic Imperial engineering science, not borne out by what else we see them do on film (destroy planets with a single shot), as as well as a badly-built mass-unbalanced rocket, that we are asked to assume has Imperials shoved into it with actual usable space equivalent to about 300 cubic meters a man (packed troop transport)-though we see what are apparent ocean liner (about 2000 cubic meters per man,) densities on film in large Imperial spacecraft. That is crazy.

4. Bear in mind all those goodies packed in with the troops aboard that Cheese Wedge.

5. Finally, remember the idiotic battle scenes from Revenge of the Sith when the Battle of Coruscant takes place? We see those lumbering Trade Federation and Republic dreadnoughts line up and slug it out in close orbit like sailing ship fleets did in the age of sail? Right down to the turbo-lasers Lucass showed us, the "cannons" bucked like carronades as was done at Cape Saint Vincent

Take your pick;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_..._Vincent_(1780)
or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_..._Vincent_(1797)

That is not how you fight naval battles, anymore;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Latakia

6. In space combat you move in FAST during the merge, strafe everything in your way with your halo cloud of close-accompanying small fighters to suppress enemy point defenses, unload the beam/missile ordnance from your base ship, and run out, leaving a debris field behind you. It looks and feels like three dimensional billiards played in a dark room with you freefalling toward each other through the air, with each of you using bullets for cue balls and machine guns for cue sticks.


That is WHAT you should see.

------------------------------------------

Thoughts on the variance of the fleet totals.

I had to settle on the equivalent of a Colonial Liberty ship. I wasn't about to do a whole day of running down figures on a half dozen different ships to nitpick the sample, when I could pick an average mean and obtain a useful range.

Example 1;
http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image:Ragtagfleet.jpg
Example 2;
http://www.cylon.org/bsg/bsg-others-01.html
Example 3;
http://www.tecr.com/galactica/miscships/miscships.htm

I needed a hull somewhere in the middle of the size distribution (those agro ships from Silent Running are at least twice the size of the Alligator to keep the size scales near correct).

So that is how I obtained a fleet mean of 100,000 to 600,000 people.
----------------------------------
As for Casino Royale?

Good film.

Better than the Woody Allen tripe.

As always;

Oh how they must love you over at SD.net!!! Wong method indeed or maybe they would be even less receptive at Spacebattles.

In either case, as always well done.

[gmd3d]

OHh!! WE all love Damocles... just don't understand him (Joke )

[WarMachine]

Well, Damocles and I have disagreed on occasion, but at least we are adult enough to keep it friendly. His technical abilities are a definate plus for CF - KUDO's, Dam!

OTOH, don't get me started on SD.net - that's a rant waiting to happen: Wong has some very good and entertaining information, but he really needs to a) just fess up and admit that he's a raving Lucas fan-boy, and b) get some control over his list - the comments I read there are so petty, viscious and nasty, it's not worth it to take the time to post.

[WarMachine]

Originally Posted by Damocles

<INSERT> RE: Battlestar Wiki

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image:Ragtagfleet.jpg

So that is how I obtained a fleet mean of 100,000 to 600,000 people.
----------------------------------

As always;

Having quickly browsed their FTL section, I am distinctly underwhelmed. I prefer my own version, whose battle tactics messes very nicely with Damocles' synopsis.

[WarMachine]

Originally Posted by WarMachine

Having quickly browsed their FTL section, I am distinctly underwhelmed. I prefer my own version, whose battle tactics messes very nicely with Damocles' synopsis.

Sorry! Should have included a link for those who haven't read it, yet:

http://www.colonialfleets.com/forums...ad.php?t=12033

[gmd3d]

Originally Posted by WarMachine

Well, Damocles and I have disagreed on occasion, but at least we are adult enough to keep it friendly. His technical abilities are a definate plus for CF - KUDO's, Dam!

OTOH, don't get me started on SD.net - that's a rant waiting to happen: Wong has some very good and entertaining information, but he really needs to a) just fess up and admit that he's a raving Lucas fan-boy, and b) get some control over his list - the comments I read there are so petty, viscious and nasty, it's not worth it to take the time to post.

The Technical stuff sometime go a little over my head .. but I understand it .

I never been to SD.net ..and from what you said I won't bother ..

[WarMachine]

Originally Posted by Taranis

The Technical stuff sometime go a little over my head .. but I understand it .

I never been to SD.net ..and from what you said I won't bother ..

Well, like I said, there's a lot of neat stuff in the main site; I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but it's definately an interesting time-killer. Some of Wong's personal-page/non-SW views are definately interesting and thought-provoking, as well, whether you agree with them or not.

I'd recommend it, for those reasons, alone.

The board, OTOH, isn't worth the trouble. Some of that is Wong's fault, but the main problem is that it's populated by the SW version of "Trek-tards"...You know the type: "ST (or SW) TOTALLY ROCKS! It TOTALLY kick's EVERY OTHER SHOW's A**! And if you disagree with that, then you're a <expletive no posted> idiot!"

Visit the main site often - but don't bother with the board.

[gmd3d]

got a link .? I'll have a look and see

[WarMachine]

Originally Posted by Taranis

got a link .? I'll have a look and see

Stardestroyer.net

[gmd3d]

thanks

[WarMachine]

Np! : :

[Damocles]

Those are the Valley Forges from Silent Running

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Running

The originals were supposed to be six hundred meters long. This of course is interesting to me only insofar as I can use a referent scale.

The Colonial agro ships have to be larger, much larger than 600 meters to sustain the hydroponic acreage and the Colonial equivalent of poultry and pig farms.

Why?

There are three Colonial agro ships.

Take fifty thousand Colonials.

How much does an average Human eat by mass? well if we assume that the average Colonial eats a two thousand eight hundred K/calorie diet...............He/she will consume about two kilograms of food/water per day of which he/she needs this;

ESTIMATED CALORIES: 2800
TOTAL FAT: less than 95.1 (g)
SATURATED FAT: less than 31.7 (g)
CHOLESTEROL: less than 300.0 (mg)
SODIUM: less than 2400.0 (mg)
POTASSIUM: 3500.0 (mg)
CARBOHYDRATE: 427.8 (g)
FIBER: 30.0 (g)
PROTEIN: 56.0 (g)

You see why the Colonials need hogs? They need 2000 kilograms of Porky Pig per day? That is sixteen average hogs slaughtered for fat and protein.

Average hog is 125 kgs. It takes him five months to get there from piglet status.
He eats 3 kg of the same kind of food we eat, but he can be fed on garbage. It takes about 100 cubic meters to sustain a hog in a spacecraft (packed like sardines).

An agro ship to sustain 50,000 Colonials needs a base population of 6000 hogs yearly.

The pig farm requires 6,000,000 cubic meters of volume. Assume that is one dome on the agro ship.

For grins and giggles I did a rough calculation based on one of those domes of the Valley Forge to obtain a pigfarm in space based on the above, and I came up with a minimum size of 150 meters radius to obtain the correct needed 6,000,000 cubic meter volume(the domes are rather squashed and are not perfect hemispheres). However I recalculated to obtain a redundant population of 10,000 hogs with associated plant hydroponics facilities in the same dome to grow the pigfeed in the same habitat as well as a chicken farm for some meat variety. Gave me a dome of 300 meters radius and a 40,000,000 million cubic meter habitat that I call Hog Heaven.

Now using the above illustration, how big is an Agro ship if I have a 300 meter radius dome based on the hog calculation to sustain 50,000 Colonials?

6000 meters +/- 10% in length.
600 meters +/- 10% in height and width.
and it is roughly 200,000,000 tons in mass.

Boy, is it huge! About three and a quarter nautical miles long and twice the mass of an Alligator!

Three of the agro-ships, using hydroponics and a 10,000 hog pigfarm, can sustain 150,000 Colonials.

And





As always;

[BST]

They might be vegetarians.

[Damocles]

is that I love puns.

For example I might write;

"But the R/T fleet is filled with Colonials, not Vegans."




Somehow they just don't get my jokes........................................

As always;

[gmd3d]

WHEN!! we get our classic BSG .. I am going to start a partition to get you involved in the show as Technical adviser. Damocles
mankind cannot live on mushes alone he also need miss piggy

are mushies the food of the fleet .. I can't see the manufacturing sweet food stuff for children with the resources they have ..so is that their food? .. is that
a mix of the foods they produce ?